249. Why Intentionality Matters for Coworking Operators of All Sizes

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249. Why Intentionality Matters for Coworking Operators of All Sizes

00:00:01 Welcome to the Everything Coworking podcast, where you learn what you need to know about how the world wants to work. And now your host coworking space owner and trend expert, Jamie Russo. Welcome to the Everything Coworking podcast. This is your host, Jamie Russo. Thank you for joining me today. My podcast guest today is Paul Stanton. You have probably not heard of him,

00:00:40 but he has this super interesting background in real estate in flex and prop tech. So I think you're going to be interested in his perspective on what's happening in the commercial real estate market today. And I wanted to mention, we talk a lot on our podcast today about being intentional and about doing market research and really designing a product that your consumers want to buy and how that is often not what's happening with commercial real estate today.

00:01:13 So I thought it would be appropriate to mention that in terms of our podcast, we are being more intentional in 2022 than ever before. You probably can't tell as an end-user. So I thought I would be explicit about it, but we are organizing our podcast schedule around themes. And those themes are case studies, interviews and trends, market news and data,

00:01:41 and Q and a. So they're kind of broad categories. I love case studies because I love a sort of how I did this story. Like we recently had Jen tonky on the podcast and she opened in a smaller market. She's now, you know, buying a building, opening a food hall. I think there are lots of like practical takeaways from what she's up to,

00:02:05 or at least an inspirational story and interviews and trends being basically what I just did with Paul, which is someone who has a macro view of the marketplace that many of you just don't get access to, right? Because you're running your own individual business and you kind of see what's going on in your own local market and he could read what's happening, you know,

00:02:27 in the news on LinkedIn. But it's super helpful to just kind of get inside the head of somebody who sees a range of different pieces of the commercial real estate market today. So I love interviews with folks like Paul, even if they seem kind of a little, you know, broadly over all over the map. I think there are insights to be pulled there,

00:02:51 just like a feeling of awareness of like what's happening out there and feeling like you're, you're kind of in the know, and then market news or data will be new things that are launching sinker crew might be an example. The interview that we did with Hector or other kind of market data, that's out there like the flex report from the flex index, I should say from office R and D and then Q and A's that we pull from the Facebook group or other kind of just really practical questions and answers that we can share with you so that you get a sense for what other folks are asking about.

00:03:31 So just thought I would share that framework. We're kind of rotating through those themes throughout the year. So when we schedule and invite our guests, we have that framework in mind. So with that being said, today's guest is Paul Stanton. He is the head of strategy for Equium, but he has a background in management agreements. He started a company to create sort of the,

00:03:55 the bond voice of Coworking. He's been an essence asset manager. He started a prop tech company to help landlords create a better tenant experience. He's done a number of things and he shares his background a little bit. So I won't go into too much detail. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Paul welcome. I am here with Paul Stanton who is sitting in a house on Nantucket,

00:04:24 although it's off season. So he's not headed to the beach quite yet this afternoon. So Paul and I just had a 50 minute catch up, which I had said, Hey, Paul, let's catch up and record it because I tend to do these catch-ups and get lots of nuggets off the, off the record. So we hit record and are happy to join.

00:04:45 So I thought Paul would just be a great guest to talk about just what he's seeing in the world of flex and prop tech. So Paul you've had, I do want to talk about your, your background sort of on the record, because it's an interesting one. So you went to law school, which I always think is interesting. And if people get a law degree and then do something totally different,

00:05:09 so you've done asset management, you co-founded building social, which I'd love to have you talk about, and you've been working with Equium on their strategy. And I would bet lots of my listeners don't know what Equium is. So can you just kinda run us through your, your history in, in real estate? Yeah, I'll be very quick. I mean,

00:05:31 you know, I start with them highly add. So that, that, that would explain a lot of, Yeah. And I w I w I left off workplace hospitality management, which is, which will be super interesting to my audience as well. So yes, that's what, that's what it looks like a little bit. And yet I do think probably for most of us in this industry,

00:05:51 it was not a path that we designed in advance. Right. Totally. And, and, you know, I, I think I've had the same vision all along, and I think many people have had a very similar vision, or at least those that have been on the flex side or in some of the early prop tech side is, is this vision that,

00:06:08 you know, buildings needed to be more than, you know, these obligations and more than these just like very sterile environments, but it had to be a destination. It had to be places that you wanted to wake up and go to every day. And you know, it, that it have a brand that, you know, are consumer grade in the sense that they,

00:06:25 they speak to a specific demographic. Like, I always think that the idea that like Adidas would never just like design a shoe that had everything on it. Like they, they focus on who exactly it's for and then what bells and whistles that demographic needs and what they're going to pay for it. And that's how they think of their products. And people really need to start thinking about,

00:06:44 you know, holistically about office buildings in that way. And I think that's where I've always been is, is, you know, how do I get there? So I, I started out as a broker in New York and then with Newmark, and then I didn't like brokerage and I wanted to get on the investment side and really get into the creativity of like value add real estate.

00:07:03 So I went to law school, came out and worked for a real estate, private equity group. I was their head of leasing. I was based in Philly and we were buying and redeveloping buildings in Chicago. We were putting all this money into amenity centers and they, no one used them. So, you know, I was in a WeWork at the time and working out of a WeWork.

00:07:20 So I said, how do we bottle up? We work and bring that to the office building. So this is like my very early days of trying to make that, Where that insight came from is, Yeah, there is something to, to, to this career path. So, you know, my thought was, you know, can you bring,

00:07:38 you know, a bubbly individual, which is, you know, the community managers from WeWork and give them technology and program and office building in such a way that it started to create a brand and create a vibe and not, you know, make them be sterile, boring, like monolithic places. So we, we started that in Chicago. I started in,

00:07:59 in the portfolio of, of the private equity group that I worked in. And then we expanded it. We had some, some big partners in, in Heinz and Sterling bay and a few others in Chicago. We moved to Nashville. We were moving to New York, but, you know, I just, I was just fighting with property managers constantly. Like no one wanted to give us the bandwidth to do what we wanted to do in the building.

00:08:19 And we kept getting knocked down and the revenue model couldn't quite make the revenue model makes sense. I didn't want to go pure like software for the building. I wanted it to be this operator that just obviously wasn't welcome at the party at the time. So, but I, I did see Coworking becoming, getting more of a foothold in those spaces, especially around the management agreement.

00:08:37 So started workplace hospitality with a partner, Dan Doyle, who you also know, and then we partnered with common desk. You know, our, our vision was, you know, Coworking was a value add strategy for office really that you could take a building that was, you know, leasing for 30 bucks a foot, make it 90 bucks a month.

00:08:55 That's what we work with doing. So, you know, could we, could we start a management company that partnered with the best brands and then ultimately, you know, buy a portfolio of kind of small boutique buildings. You know, the vision was the, the, like a boutique hotel meats, you know, coworking space. So we worked with Nick,

00:09:16 we partnered with Nick at common desk and we opened up the North Carolina markets for him. Ultimately, the plan was to be buying buildings and putting common desk in them as the flag. And we, we had the management company to operate them and then COVID hit everything kind of stalled. The management company was just getting off the ground. We had done a few deals in North Carolina for Nick,

00:09:36 and then I kind of pressed pause on that. Went back to the 10 experience side and gab with that Graham is someone that I've worked with or knew for years because I building social was kind of the only other, only company doing it in the U S and she was the only company doing Australia. So jumped on board with her. I've been acting as her head of strategy for the past two years.

00:09:58 And, you know, really just continuing in the market to be, you know, a player and advisor and, you know, just helping, helping out the ecosystem and, and figuring out, you know, where the next five to 10 years is going to take us. I think I met you and Gabrielle at the same time. Were you both on a panel at the GWA conference in Austin?

00:10:22 In Austin? Yeah, that, that actually sounds right. That was probably 20 18 20 17 Team Slumbers. Was there keynote in Austin? Was he there when you were on the panel? I think, I mean, it all blurs together then, but that was a very, very, very, very fun conference. It was a great conference, a hundred percent.

00:10:46 And my challenge is when I was like on the, you know, in charge of all the, all the things. So it's like it for sure. Blurs together for me. But, but yeah, I remember that connection and, and Antony at the time talking about, I didn't know who he was and we ran that conference in conjunction with NAIOP and the NAIOP team,

00:11:06 you know, knew him and was like, we need to get this guy from the UK. And he was like the early one of the early ones talking about the building. It's a brand, right? Your whole sneaker analogy. Like, don't just throw our, you know, don't just check the boxes on the amenities. No one will use them.

00:11:21 You need to be intentional. You need to be a brand, which is a big challenge. So I'm curious. So the workplace hospitality management company, your vision was not just common desk. Great. Common desk could be a flag, but you might do other flags and put like whatever the appropriate flag was, you'd go in the building. If there was an operator that matched the environment or a niche or whatever it was,

00:11:46 that was right for the building, sort of like the Marriott Bonvoy approach. That's exactly right. I mean, if you really think of how hotels evolve there's owner, there is a flag and then there's there's management company. So there's a lot of management companies out there that also have property companies. So, you know, names that you would never think of that own,

00:12:10 you know, 500 hotels across the world. And they have rights to Hilton in this market and Marriott in this market and Ritz and this marketer, or what have you. So that's kind of how we were thinking about it in a rudimentary way back in, you know, 20 17, 20 18, when we got that going was, and, and, and, you know,

00:12:27 common desk, in our opinion, you know, not to knock any of the other players out there, but the, you know, we never believed that venture capital was the right backing for, you know, a coworker it's an operating business. So we really believe That a hockey stick and no, No, no, every new location equals new expenses.

00:12:48 So, you know, so we really view, we were looking for an operator who were operators to partner with that state, you know, real estate, a local business, so that like stayed in a local market and really, really ha ha had the right capital stack and had the right, you know, who, who controlled their destiny. And Nick was Nick,

00:13:08 was that guy. I mean, you know, he stayed in Dallas for a very long time, perfecting a product before he took it to other markets. So, and, you know, and we were, we were the right growth partner for him for a new market because, you know, we came in and, you know, parachuted in and helped him write his SLPs.

00:13:26 And in that, you know, over a three month process, prove to him that we were worthy of, of going and operating in a new market for him. But he was operationally disciplined enough to say like, you know, yes, we'll go to Austin and Dallas or Austin and Houston, but we're not going to go to North Carolina ourselves right now because it would take,

00:13:44 you know, take the eye or take his eye off of, you know, what was important. So that, that, that was the original vision was, was having those flags and being able to own those properties and be a next generation landlord, really someone that truly understood the different revenue streams and understood flex and understand. So that flex, you know,

00:14:03 in and of itself is purely a commodity that anyone is going to figure out the business model for. But it's really the brand that you layer on top of that. That's going to, you know, disintermediate some of the other unnecessary fees in the, in, in the traditional model. Yeah. Quick, quick side note on that, I run a program called the Coworking Startup School.

00:14:24 And I, people, we were talking about the, the market research approach and, you know, your analogy of Adidas would never just make a shoe without, you know, spending months figuring out exactly what to build and then go build it. I get students all the time who think they sh they don't want to do the market research because then everyone in their market will know they're working on this.

00:14:46 And someone will take the idea. And I go tell your investors that you did not validate your idea because someone else will take it when it's a model that anybody can reverse engineer you like on paper, right. You can reverse engineer the model. It is not hard to figure out like, like it is hard, right. To get it right. It's hard to get it right.

00:15:09 So you need to get it right by doing market research and figuring out exactly what your market wants and what to build. So that they'll buy it. So side note, but I wanted to ask you about that model because in our appreciate, and you mentioned, you know, COVID, you needed to do larger spaces. You need to kind of be able to take over the whole building.

00:15:29 So you set it aside is that, but do you see that as being, is there room for that in the future? Is that the future model or not, Hey, there, I'm going to interrupt our interview for just a quick second. Someone reached out to me recently, for some help, they were negotiating a management agreement using a property management agreement template as their starting point.

00:15:58 You do not want to do that. So I sent this person straight to Michael Abrams. And what you want to do is understand all the possible negotiation points for a management agreement, what the relationship looks like, which is very different from a property management agreement, what the roles look like, who does, what, what happens if you want to know what all of those possibilities are and what the structure of an agreement looks like for a management agreement,

00:16:32 so that you can confidently negotiate with your partner. You don't want to start with a template. That's not for management agreement because it's just like philosophically not aligned. And you don't want to start with someone else's template because maybe they started with a property management template, or they just ended up with a deal that is not what your deal is going to look like.

00:16:50 So you want to start with the base of all the things that you need to know about how a management agreement works and it gets negotiated. So you've heard us talk about this before we're starting our next live cohort for our creative Coworking partnerships course, the week of April 26, which is in a couple of weeks. When you register for the course, you get all the content immediately.

00:17:14 So we've recorded modules that are online. You can binge watch them. You can listen to them in your car and you get access to all of our past Q and A's as well. But we also run a new cohort of live Q and A's. And right now you get an invite to every new cohort once you joined the class. So if you're just at the beginning of your journey,

00:17:37 you'll get an invite to our next cohort. We've been running this course for about a year. Now we've run four cohorts. I think. So we have a number of folks in the group working on deals. Some are working on deals with their current landlords. Some are working on deals with landlords. If they've met locally, some are just, you know,

00:17:57 kind of pursuing deals outside of their local market, as a way to expand. We've had landlords in the course as well, who are looking for partners and looking to understand how the relationship works. So if you are thinking about, or working on a management agreement, you want to be pretty close, I think because it's pretty practical and tactical, but if you want to learn,

00:18:20 how are you getting close to starting to consider negotiating one? Then it's a great course. It's super in depth. Michael has decades of experience in real estate, and he has Coworking management agreement experience. He's always working on deals with folks. So he knows kind of the latest and greatest of what folks are negotiating. So, like I said, everything's online,

00:18:42 but we run a live Q and a cohort for three to four weeks, kind of, depending on the activity of the group. And that next live cohort will start April 26th. So if you want the details on the course and to join us for the live cohort, you can find them at Everything, Coworking dot com forward slash management agreement. And now we'll get back to our interview.

00:19:05 I mean, I think the, the future model, in my opinion, is the ability to create a brand from, from an office building. But I don't think it necessarily has to be in partnership with the co-working operators of today. I mean, I think that there is a, I think back to your point about marketing and understanding, understanding the demographic and the client that you're going after.

00:19:34 Like, I don't think we get even, I don't think we we've begun to touch on what it means to do market research for a building and what it means to understand who your client is for a building, because forever it's just been, you know, get, get, get, get a tenant that has really good credit. That'll take whatever square footage we have.

00:19:51 And I think we need to look at that through the inverse now and really think about, you know, the building first. And we need to understand who are we trying to attract? And, you know, an example I always use is like, you know, looking at, if you're looking at architects in a certain city and being able to say,

00:20:06 you know, and I think of a building is, you know, the real value prop of a building now is shared services between a community. So, you know, if I can be designing a building around, you know, a market that I understand that it's, you know, called the architect community, and I know that that's this big in this market,

00:20:22 and I can talk to them and understand everything that the, this, and maybe it's, you know, the mid-market architects, the 20 to 150 person architecture companies. And to be able to go in there and understand what those companies need, both all, you know, that includes flexibility. That includes square footage. That includes the, the amenities and the services they need.

00:20:43 And then being able to really understand that design a that's geared toward and, and, you know, focused on that type of demographic. And in the process, I'm going to be building, building my tenant base as I'm, as I'm going. So, you know, from a, from a flexibility perspective, like I think flex plays into that. And I think some of the operators that exist today can still be,

00:21:06 you know, good brands that speak to, you know, a certain demographic. But I think just painting the, you know, we're going to be a brand for millennials like that worked for rework, you know, 15 years ago, but that's not going to work today. We really need to get crystal clear on what the workspace is being used for.

00:21:22 And I think those are, you know, if you can, as a landlord, create, understand that market research component understand how to create a brand. And then based off of that design, how much flex you need, how much traditional office you need, how much, you know, because you may unlock huge revenue opportunities from the amenities you provide,

00:21:39 you may be able to charge a ton of money on some special type of printing that every one of these companies needs and would gladly share rather than have to invest it on their own. So I don't know if I answered that question at all the way he wanted me to, but yeah, I, so to me, the challenge, and you've kind of talked about this.

00:21:58 You had a LinkedIn video recently about just like the ecosystem that has to be in place. I, I worry that the landlords are still like, just getting into the mindset of, we have to offer flexibility and getting their brokers on board. I won't go into how challenging it is. Like the incentives are really aligned, right? And the burgers don't understand flex and how to sell flex and how to get paid on flex.

00:22:27 And, and to go from that, to what you're describing feels like a generational leap. I don't know. I mean, I see it in our lifetime. We have to, I, I know some landlords that are willing to think outside the box and, and be thinking more along these lines, but like The biggest are they all like, No,

00:22:49 no, no, it's all, all small, all, all small groups, people that have worked for large institutions that are, you know, young enough to understand the office building as a brand and a product, but I'm old enough to have gained enough experience that they can raise large funds and, you know, have a track record of, you know,

00:23:08 value add investing or, or whatever it is. But what was I going to say on the, you know, I think the biggest thing for landlords to overcome overcoming the flex thing and the thing they need to get over immediately is the fact that collects as a product is a commodity. Like there's no, there's nothing special about the ability to look at a floor plan and lay out a flex product and come up with a licensing agreement on that space that says,

00:23:33 you, you can rent this from month to month. Like, yes, that seemed like some foreign instrument, you know, five, 10 years ago. But like today, like landlords need to get up to speed and like be able to just put that in their quiver, learn it and forget about it. And so, you know, whether you're a large institutional group or a smaller,

00:23:50 you know, more entrepreneurial group right now, like if you're doing it kudos to you, because you're, it's a 10,000 hour rule, like you have to do it enough times to get your hands on it, to understand it raw. It's not rocket science it's, but it is a new science, blah, blah, blah. So I think you need it,

00:24:04 but then you need to quickly get over that and start saying like, all right, now I know this, like other type of asset class, you might call it a flax like now is when I can start creating opportunity because I can target the right demographics and come up with workspace products geared toward a very, very specific community. And I think that's the skill set that you're going to have to need as a real estate operator in the future to succeed.

00:24:29 I mean, you're going to need the capital markets experience, et cetera, et cetera, but we're no, I don't know that we'll, there will be some assets. I assume that we'll continue to operate this, but the old school, like capital markets as the client of, you know, you know, a real estate GP and viewing like how many of these leases can I stack up and securitize and putting up clauses in that it locks my tenants in that have enough credit that I can go to the capital markets and exchange it for,

00:24:59 you know, for credit and, you know, a good cap rate like that is, I don't know that that's going to be the game going forward. So I think it's important to understand where we've come from and important to understand how to play that game. But I think there's increasing importance to understand, you know, office like Anthony, slumbers my chair,

00:25:16 like as a brand, as a product that you need to create for a very specific individual or, you know, if you're thinking of it, you know, it's really more a B2B consumer grade brand is how I describe it. Even though that's contradictory. Yeah. I mean the whole consumer brand piece, I think we were getting there, but COVID really,

00:25:36 really consumerized the product because we were talking before we hit record and you were like in Manhattan, you and your wife were in a small apartment, somebody's got to leave, right? Like you're not going to coexist, you know, but you had, your criteria was like some something within five blocks, right. That sort of then fits your need. But then when you're someplace where you have more space,

00:26:02 you're like, I don't really need to leave. And you don't. And I think that's like the really interesting challenge that we're facing is for a landlord, you know, to your point, to figure out like, well, who, who wants to come? And then what do they want? Well, and you're talking about a consumer and an enterprise,

00:26:24 right? So those are two very different areas, Both cause now the enterprises are like their people, their employees are now consumers where it used to be, Hey, this is where we go. You're coming. You don't have a choice. And, and now they're, I do see, you know, what, I work with a woman in a market in Canada,

00:26:48 she has enterprises coming in and taking 50 seats and no one will show up and it may be because Canada's slowly moving out of COVID and you know, it's just like the temperament, but it's the whole consumer piece is like, well, the enterprise is saying, we need to have space. We'll make it flexible. We'll make it closer to home, but still the B the actual human stay at home.

00:27:13 So like, you know, yeah. So it's an interesting, I think that gets into a leadership component though, too, is Like, you know, Equium has spaces convene in Midtown, and I would otherwise never go to Midtown, but, you know, gab, the CEO is, is, you know, coming in from Westchester to three days a week.

00:27:34 And so, you know, she's coming in, everyone's coming in, we're going out for drinks afterwards. And I think, you know, and, and, and you're happy to be in the office those days. And so I think people, you know, we'll go, we'll commute places. I, you know, I won't commute there, you know,

00:27:49 just because, but I'll commute there. If there's going to be people from the company there on that day. But I think, you know, on a larger scale, I think you're going to start seeing companies operate their spaces like Coworking, right? Like you, you're going to start seeing companies build their own clubs it's already happening, but like, you've got like what Amazon did with AWS lofts,

00:28:08 Dropbox studios, like, you know, you see companies leasing, large blocks of space and creating it as really an amenity for employees. And they're running it, like, you know, call it a sow house or call it a work or whatever you want to call it. But there's that been be there's activations, there's things to do. And like Dropbox,

00:28:25 for example, they, they have, you know, at least in the article that I read about how they're organizing it, like you can't go there just for everyday work. Like if you're going to use Dropbox studios, you have to be going there with intention and you have to be going there to meet with, you know, meet with employees or bring clients there,

00:28:40 et cetera, et cetera. It's, it's It's Yep. Which is compelling. It is. And you've got, so, you know, I would even consider that as a flavor of Coworking out to corporate operated Coworking, and, you know, maybe Dropbox makes that available to their clients in some way, shape or form. And maybe that's, you know,

00:29:00 an added benefit of being a Dropbox customer, Dropbox customer, but, you know, landlords for sure though, if they're going to get involved, you know, if they're going to be proactive than, than they need to be, they need to be leaning into all of this as well. And again, beyond just, you know, learn, learn the flex component or learn how to operate a flex space generally,

00:29:21 but then, you know, it's really how to brand and market it. Can you just talk briefly about Equium model? Sure. Yeah. So Equium is a 10 experience company, so they they're a SAS platform for office buildings. And, you know, I, I think w what's what's interesting about, what's interesting to have watched with Equium over the past few years is really,

00:29:45 you know, some of the landlords that are, you really get out of a platform like that, what you put into it. So the landlords that are forward thinking that do understand that operationally, they need to be taking things to another level, having a technology platform like that, and building unlocks lots and lots of opportunities. So, you know, you can communicate easier with tenants.

00:30:04 Tenants I'll have a mobile app, they can book amenities. They, you know, if you have conferencing in the building, if you have some FNB programs in the building, if you have a fitness center that has a Peloton bike, you know, all of that can now be booked through that platform. But, you know, the value of the platform is really,

00:30:20 you know, somewhat dependent upon the effort that they, that a landlord is willing to put into it operationally. So those landlords that are, you know, just putting a technology platform for the sake of putting in tech. And this is how I feel about all of the prop tech, like just to put technology and for the sake of putting technology and a stupid,

00:30:36 like, it's a, it's a complete waste of money, but if you are, you know, invest investing in it with intention and, and operating in a different way that I think it, you know, you can get a ton of value out of platforms like Acquia. Is there a big enough existing market for Equium, or do they have to sort of build that demand?

00:30:59 Like, are there enough landlords that are looking at that platform and willing to adopt it and change their, you know, their approach to use it? Because this feels like what we were just talking about, like a more entrepreneurial advanced landlord, there are enough of them to enough market. And I think, you know, the same, the same way they're stepping into to flex.

00:31:26 I'm getting a little bit of, I think, I wonder if it's your headphones, Are they running out of battery? Oh, no, I'm stuck. Hold on. So picking back up, you were asking if there were, you know, if there's demand, you know, if there are enough entrepreneurial landlords to, to consider a 10 experience platform.

00:31:56 So I think on a much larger, larger scale, you know, it's something that every landlord knows they need to have just a better way of communicating and, you know, creating a digital experience within an office building. Like it's just a necessity, you know? So I think everyone is, everyone is investing in it now. I mean, you're seeing all the institutional groups kind of like test out,

00:32:20 you know, the, the few different players in the space, but, and, you know, with a plan to roll it out across their portfolio. But I think you do see mass adoption of let's call it a digital layer for every office building it's just necessary, like to not have some type of mobile experience for the office just doesn't make sense in 2022.

00:32:42 But, you know, I would argue that more than 50% of equity clients aren't leveraging the platform as well as they could. You know, I, I think there's so much that they could be doing to be, you know, delivering a better building experience through the technology, but the technology itself, you know, can facilitate, but doesn't necessarily create that,

00:33:06 you know, that special experience that, you know, to, to be able to, to hire the right Community Manager, 10 experienced person, that's going to, you know, program the building or the quality of the amenities you design, you know, per our conversation earlier about architects. Like, you know, are you just putting a tenant lounge in with,

00:33:26 you know, some colorful things because you saw it, you know, in a competitive building and needed to check the box or are you actually doing it with attention? So, you know, I think, you know, will the platform be ubiquitous? Like without question, will it be, you know, leveraged properly? I think it'll, it'll continue to take time,

00:33:47 but, you know, over time we will see, you know, just better operators out of necessity. So who is on the implementation team on the asset owners side. And does that over time, how does that fit in with, with like a flex offering? You know, if we talk about sort of whole building integration and sort of get into like the prop tech conversation,

00:34:12 w what does the future look like? Or the next step it's not, I mean, everything's progressing together, right? Like, you know, right now there's just a lot of disconnected prop tech solutions, and there's an op you know, operators call it the caught the property managers, but also the asset managers who have to start looking at these buildings through more of a hospitality lens.

00:34:35 So I think, you know, it's never just going to happen overnight, but it's going to, you know, you're going to be forced. The, the industry is going to be forced to adopt more quickly. And so on the prop tech side, like who's implementing it on the landlord side. I mean, you know, depending on who the technology is for,

00:34:50 it's either, you know, if it's like, you know, something to do with building management systems or sensors around energy efficiency, you're dealing with the property manager and the engineering team. If you're talking about, you know, the 10 experience platform you're working primarily with the property manager and a little bit of the asset manager, a little bit of the leasing manager,

00:35:07 if you're talking about, you know, different leasing technologies or marketing technologies or CRMs for the building, you're obviously talking to the leasing agent and the asset manager. So, you know, you're starting to touch all the stakeholders with these different technologies. And I don't suggest that at any, you know, at any point, all of these technologies should merge into one necessarily.

00:35:26 I think just like in any other industry, you're going to see some technologies or, you know, families of technologies that pull together multiple solutions. And you'll see some that are just really good at doing what they're doing, but ultimately it's going to be up to the operators to decide what's going to allow them. I think that's the big shift in the industry that we're going to have to get to,

00:35:44 is the operators, you know, again, I'm repeating myself over and over, but operating with intention, like, you know, what am I trying to do in this building? Who am I trying to target? You know, who is this space for? And therefore, you know, what technologies and what programming is going to allow me to, to execute best.

00:36:01 And I think you will see a lot of the same technologies and a lot of buildings, you know, 10 experience access control, a lot of just like the, the, the people sensors and energy sensors and things like that. Especially as ESG becomes more and more important to, to lower companies, to buildings, but, you know, ultimately it's going to be on the operators to come up to have,

00:36:21 you know, their tech stack that they come in and they say, this is what I use to deliver, you know, a strong NOI for my, you know, for my ownership group. So that's where I see, you know, property managers needing to become an asset managers become just a lot savvier in this space and, and understand, you know,

00:36:42 flex in different workplace products and all the technology is much better, so they can make more educated decisions and, and the getting there, you know, but you're also seeing some of these other groups, like, you know, we work at IWG, I don't know that they'll be the ones to get there, but I think some of your, your flex providers that could emerge and,

00:37:01 you know, provide more holistic solutions, you know, who can understand these technologies, maybe more natively because of the types of companies they are and, and, and, you know, challenge the CBS and the JLLs et cetera, for who is actually operating the day to day in a building. Yeah. And then the, I think, you know,

00:37:24 what does the future look like in terms of the integration of the, you know, you talked about the workplace hospitality groups sort of coming to the conclusion that you really wanted control over the whole building, you know, but right. Who gets displaced, how does that, you know, there's displacement or does the existing team sort of, it feels like the competencies around like really full building management are more native,

00:37:55 you know, to use your term with the operators than with the property management team and the leasing agents. Like it's a bigger need for them to, to get into that. And they just don't have the reps. Right. But I'm the reps on, on what that feels like and what good experience looks like. Exactly. Exactly. But, you know,

00:38:14 again, I think all of this is going to be forced out of necessity, right? When, when you start seeing buildings that are just, you know, emptying out and you don't have any tenants left, you're going to have to start, you know, taking what I'm sure most would consider extreme measures to start thinking about flex and designing buildings differently and hiring differently.

00:38:32 And I think, you know, necessity right as the birth of all invention. So, you know, when, when no one can pay their debts, when landlords can't pay their debt services, and they're looking at giving the keys back, they're going to have to start relying on new models of operating, hiring, using technology, et cetera, et cetera.

00:38:50 And, and the, the people that are doing that now and, and playing with these models now are the ones that will win and ultimately be looked to, you know, as the models of the future, and then that'll become stale and we'll be, you know, having to all migrate to the metaverse so Right to the next thing. Well, so that,

00:39:08 that relates to my last question for you, which is you've had kind of a winding road so far. What are you most excited about right now? I'm excited about a few things. One is really bringing new workplace concepts too, and I'm not saying that I'm going to do this myself, but the idea of bringing new workplace concepts to smaller towns, like when I look at what's happened here in Nantucket and you know,

00:39:37 how more and more people are spending more and more time out here, but there really are no workplace amenities. We're not even in the Nantucket of anywhere. Right. And, and, and, and talk, it could be a bad example, right? But like, I'm talking about any small town where people, people are moving and working remotely because they're around natural resources and,

00:39:58 you know, whether it's the ocean, the mountains, you know, whatever gets you going. But, you know, I think there's really interesting real estate opportunities to take kind of old, tired commercial space in those markets and turn them into, you know, vibrant workplace ecosystems. So that's kind of one, one trend that I would like to see happen.

00:40:18 And other is, you know, is just this, this shift in, you know, what I would call and many would call branded office buildings, but really focused on a specific demographic and taking, you know, and this is where I really want to play in the future is like understanding all the puzzle pieces and being able for any, any asset to bring those things together.

00:40:38 And I think everything that exists today is still is still going to be relevant. Like the leasing model, isn't going to go away, it's going to change, but there's always going to be a need for, you know, tenant rep advisory and landlord rep advisory. And there's always going to be need for, you know, traditional property management and accounting,

00:40:54 and like the quality of accounting that comes with, like, that's what I think a lot of these flex management companies don't understand is like the quality of a property management accounting report. And what you prepare annually is so far beyond what they think about preparing. So just like, you know, helping that ecosystem kind of come together. And I think, you know,

00:41:13 yes, there will be a lot of office buildings that get repurposed into other things, because I don't believe there's going to be the demand for like, I would be so controversial to say that 50% of the market of the current office market may go in the U S may go to, to, you know, I'm not saying that right. We're going to see vacancy rates hit 50%.

00:41:32 I, or we'll never see them actually hit that because they'll just be repurposed into other asset types. But, you know, I don't think the demand ever returns, but for the demand that is there, which is very real and will exist, you know, seeing those puzzle pieces come together and just seeing assets, you know, looked at differently. And I also see a world where a lot of the larger tech players,

00:41:55 whether they're the current prop tech players or some of the, you know, the bigger technology companies, I see them raising prop CO's and owning these as well. Because I think at some point the technology becomes more valuable than the operations sometime in the future. And if, if that's where all the values stored, then why wouldn't those, those companies be the ones who are extracting,

00:42:17 you know, value out of the asset, but the physical assets themselves. So I think that's a trend that I look forward to staying close to in the future. Okay. I thank you for, we went well over our allotted time. Thank you for letting us kind of get inside your brain and, and share a little bit about what you see.

00:42:36 I think it's always so interesting just for folks that have a macro, you have a nice macro perspective of what's happening out there from your, your windy journey. We'd love to, to hear the perspective. So thank you for taking the time. Awesome, Jimmy, thank you so much. And I look forward to keeping the conversation going. Likewise. Thanks,

00:42:57 Paul. Hey there, thanks for sticking with us through the end of the episode, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast player. And if you were enjoying the podcast, please go leave us a review. It helps other folks find the podcast who are thinking about starting a coworking space or already operating a coworking space and are looking to stay up to speed on tips and trends.

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