365. Inside Groundwork Coworking: Sarah Athanas on 10 Years of Building Community in a Small Market
Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
Everything Coworking Featured Resources:
Masterclass: 3 Behind-the-Scenes Secrets to Opening a Coworking Space
TRANSCRIPTION
365. Inside Groundwork Coworking: Sarah Athanas on 10 Years of Building Community in a Small Market
00:00:00,"Welcome to the Everything Coworking podcast, where every week I keep you updated on the latest trends and how tos in coworking. I owned and operated coworking spaces for eight years and then served as the executive director of the Global Workspace association for five years. And today I work with hundreds of operators and community managers every month, allowing me to bring you thought provoking operator case studies and inspirational interviews with industry thought leaders to help you confidently stay on top of what's important and what you can apply to your own role in the coworking industry."
00:00:40,"Welcome. I am here with Sarah Athanas. She is the co founder and owner of Groundwork coworking in New Bedford, Massachusetts. And Sarah, you recently celebrated ten years, is that right? Are you coming up on ten? Yes, we are coming up in November, actually. Of course. Yes. Very close. Yeah. Super exciting. Yeah. I don't know if I realize you've been open for so long. Ten years is a major milestone."
00:01:09,"I can't believe it's been ten years. Like, oh, my God, where did the time go? I mean, part some. Sometimes I think, wow, that went by so fast. And then I start to think about it and I'm like, wow, that actually was really long. A lot happened in those so many ways. Yeah, yeah. You lived through the pandemic. I know. I always tell people when I working with them, people who are just opening, like, even the idea of signing a five year lease seems like an eternity."
00:01:39,"Right? Like five years of life seems like such a commitment. I'm like, oh, you just wait. You'll get to seven or ten and be like five won't be nearly it. You won't be ready to do, make any decisions in five years, probably. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What was you, I'm just curious now, what was your initial lease lengthen? So we had, it was not a traditional commercial lease because we rent from the city or in a municipal building."
00:02:06,"So it's a little bit of a different situation. So we had, our original agreement with them was for three years and it was like a very discounted rent. So after we kind of got through those three years, we had to renegotiate. Yeah, okay, interesting. But they renewed it. Yeah. I don't think I knew that. Sarah is in my, actually, we were talking about groundwork and groundswell. I work with Jess from Groundswell and we were talking about our operator membership."
00:02:33,"She's like, is it like top secret? I don't know about this operator membership. I'm like, yeah, under the radar. But. So I know a little bit about your business, because you would come to office hours, which is amazing. Yeah. And you just opened a second location. But. Okay, so three years, was it like a grant or they. I mean. Yeah, so the three years was we partnered with a city, and this is a very, like, Massachusetts specific thing, but there was actually, believe it or not, grant funding for collaborative workspaces in Massachusetts gateway Cities, which is like, a very specific."
00:03:10,"In 2014. Yes. Yeah, yep. So we partnered. We were actually the first recipients of the grant, so we were kind of like a pilot, and we partnered with our city and the economic Development council to get funding to do some of the necessary that the really, the expensive thing that needed to happen was wheelchair accessibility, because it's a public building. So we got funding to put in the ramp and to put in some other things, like a kitchen and some dividers for offices, but it was very minimal."
00:03:39,"We only had, like, two private offices when we opened, which is a whole nother story. So part of that grant was the grant has to be 100% matched. And so one of the ways that the city came up with the match washing to discount our rent for a period of three years. So it was sort of. It was a win win situation. We were funneling money into this building that they owned, and we were getting cheaper rent."
00:04:03,"So, yeah, yeah. So you did. You have to put the money in upfront to. You got the grant to do the. Okay. The improvements that you needed to do to be ADA compliant, essentially. Correct. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Got it. Yeah. But the discounted rent helps a ton. I mean, that's one of the most challenged. You just opened a second space. I mean, one of the most challenging aspects of the business is like, that, you know, getting off the ground."
00:04:28,"It was huge. Okay, so how. Tell me your coworking story. How did you. Yeah, how did you know that you wanted to do this? And it sounds like there were a few of you to start, is that right? Yes. Yeah, I did have one partner to start, so, yeah. So my coworking story, it's kind of an interesting story, but I was actually living in Argentina before I started my coworking space."
00:04:51,"I was working for a language education company there, and I was in my late twenties, and I had, like, a lot of responsibility at a young. I was basically, like, managing their whole operation in Argentina. So it was like, it's great. Cause I got to live in Buenos Aires. I was young, but I was, like, super stressed out all the time and spending long days in the office."
00:05:12,"And the guy that I was dating at the time was a digital nomad. So he brought me to this coworking space he was working at, which I believe is still in operation. It's called urban Station. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I went to this coworking space, and I was just like, oh, my God, this is so cool. This is like, I want to be like these people, right?"
00:05:34,"They're all chill and happy with their laptops. They're drinking their coffee, and, like, they're not stressed. Like, life is amazing. Totally. So that was kind of what got, like, planted the seed. Although at that time, I really just wanted to be a member of a coworking space. I wasn't like, oh, I want to earn one of these things, you know? So, yeah, like, you know, fast forward several years."
00:05:57,"I was. I'm back in the United States, and I was freelancing at that time, and there weren't any coworking spaces in my area, so that's when I was like, hmm. Like, there's, you know, there's got to be a place about this. Life is so funny. Like, what if you didn't date this guy who I don't know how you met, but he's a digital nomad. He takes you to this course."
00:06:16,"Totally. Yeah. Kind of random events that had a big impact on. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn't even know, like, at that time, I didn't even know that you could be a digital nomade. Like, I didn't even know that was, like, a thing. Like, oh, my God, these people are just living in Argentina because they can, like, wow. You know? Yeah, that's very cool. I might have to find that space and get them on the podcast."
00:06:41,"Yeah, yeah. I mean, they've been around for a while because that was, like, 2010, maybe 2011. Yeah. Okay, so. And then, okay, so then you were. You're a freelancer. You don't want to be at home. You have this idea. So, yeah, give us a little more detail. So you found someone else and talked them into doing this with you and come up with space from the city. Yeah."
00:07:05,"So at the time, I got together with a friend who became my business partner, and she had more of an arts background, and she actually had the connection to New Bedford because she went to art school in New Bedford. And so she brought me to New Bedford, and I was like, oh, this town has got, like, a really great vibe. It has a lot going on. And then it was, like, literally, I was, like, on the city of New Bedford's website, and I somehow ended up on the economic development council's website, and there was this little sentence that said, like, if you want to start a business in New Bedford, email this person."
00:07:40,"And so I just clicked. I sent an email. The next thing I know, they're like, showing us space. And they were like, oh, my God, like, we want a coworking space. You don't even know. Like, we were just talking about this in the mayor's office. And so it was a little bit of, like, being in the right place at the right time with the right idea that just sort of."
00:07:58,"It all fell into place. Yeah. Okay. That's incredible. Yeah. And New Bedford's not tiny. It looks like it's about 100,000 people. It's about 100,000. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But not huge. And you're. How far are you from Boston? We are about an hour without traffic can be as much as 2 hours with traffic, depending on what time of day you're going. So. Yeah. And we're not connected yet by the commuter rail, but that is hopefully should be coming actually next year."
00:08:26,"So that'll be a big deal for us. Yeah. That'll probably send the population continue to grow, I would guess. Yes. I also didn't know you went to school in Santa Barbara. Yes, I did. Yeah. And then you went back to Massachusetts. I mean, I guess by way of margin you had a mean drink path. But I'm like, wow. Yeah. Santa Barbara and leaves ever just. I asked me."
00:08:48,"I asked myself that question, like all the. In like February. You're like, yeah, why am I not in Santa Barbara? Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Although it looks like you have a master's degree, an MBA from UMass Dartmouth. So. Yeah, I'm actually. I'm in my last semester right now, so just crossing the finish line of the MBA. Yeah. That's so cool. Okay. Yeah. I didn't even notice the dates on there."
00:09:14,"That's funny. I just assumed. Yeah. Is it? I can imagine. It's very cool to do it as you have so much context as an adult. Like, I have an MBA when I did it when I was in my twenties. And you just. I mean, they. I had worked a little bit, but, like, it's so intellectual at that point. It's not like, yeah. You don't ground it and get it reality."
00:09:37,"Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, we'll have to talk about how that. Once we get to your outside of coworking life, we'll talk about maybe what you're doing with that. Okay. And how. How many square feet was your first location? So it started off right around 5000. A little more than 5000. And we've added, we added twice since we opened, actually. So now we're right around 7000 sqft."
00:10:01,"Okay. And you're. Is it still a lease with the city or what is it? Yes, it's still lease with the city. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. And did you, you added some more offices, but you don't have a ton of offices. We added, actually, we have quite a few now. So we added our second expansion. We added like ten small offices. Okay. Yeah. So now we have like total."
00:10:25,"We have 15 offices in that space. Okay. Got it. Okay. Went from two to 15, which was. Yes, definitely a game changer. Yeah, totally. Okay. Was that post pandemic? So the ten office expansion was actually right in the middle of the pandemic. So we started working on it pre Covid and then it just sort of was like, oh, my God, is this actually going to happen? But we did get it across the finish line and so it was sort of like, I think we were still really like in the pandemic when we started selling those offices."
00:10:59,"And surprisingly they sold because people were like, I don't want to be around other people during the. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Okay, I'm interrupting for a second. Are you working on starting a coworking space? I often emphasize how important the planning stage is. You've heard me say most unrecoverable issues happen well before you open your doors and they are related to the size of your space, your real estate deal, and a few other things."
00:11:35,"If you think you are going to pick your favorite coworking space and reverse engineer what you think you see happening in there and then pick your own paint colors and your favorite furniture, you are in for a surprise. This business is really about making the right fundamental decisions that align with your individual, personal and financial goals. So we want to help you avoid the mistakes that a lot of operators make in planning and launching that can really set you back in terms of time and finances."
00:12:10,"So we have got your back. We have created a free training to help you really get behind the three key decisions that we think are the most critical for you to get right when you're designing your coworking business. The model, not the colors, the model. And these insights come from years of operating, designing the model for two different locations and then my work with hundreds of operators as they work on their businesses."
00:12:42,"So grab your spot in our training class. You can watch it anytime, it's totally on demand. And start your coworking journey with confidence and the right strategies in place. You can grab that training at everything coworking.com forward slash masterclass. Okay, so, yeah, I mean, we'll talk about. Yeah. Who are your typical members? What does your membership look like in your first location? And then we'll talk about your second location."
00:13:13,"Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I mean, we have. I think because New Bedford is such a kind of funky little city. It's not. We don't really have, like, the typical members that you would have in a big city, so it really varies a lot. And I think I. One of the things that's interesting about our membership is that we have a lot of small nonprofits. There are a ton of nonprofits around here, and so coworking works really well for those nonprofits that have, like, maybe one or two staff members, but they need a larger space to have board meetings and things like that."
00:13:44,"So we have a lot of nonprofits, which is fun because it's sort of. It brings a lot of energy into the space, and they hold events, and it just kind of creates a more lively vibe. Yeah. You having to do all the work, it's, like, inherent vibe. It's great. Yeah. They're, like, the perfect. We're just, like, keep those members happy, like, no matter what we do, you know?"
00:14:05,"And then we do have, like, your typical remote workers, you know, much more so now after the pandemic. And we also have new Bedford is sort of this growing center for the offshore wind industry on the east coast. So we also. That's been, like, a really interesting segment for us is companies from, like, Denmark and England coming over where they need an office for, you know, six months because they're working on a project, or they need a mailing address or."
00:14:33,"Yeah. Or whatever it is. So that's an. Those are interesting. So that's, like, they'll use the space a lot for, like, four months, and then they'll disappear because the project is over. But there's enough of that coming through that it definitely makes. Helps. It makes a difference. Yeah. And you're right on the water. So it used to be. I always like to poke around, and people used to be a whaling town."
00:14:56,"Yes. We're, like, historic whaling capital now. We have a really busy fishing port. So it's actually, like, one of the points of pride in the city is that we're, like, the highest grossing commercial port in the United States, which surprises a lot of people. And we have the offshore wind industry as well. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, it's so beautiful. I would kind of want to come visit, especially this time of year."
00:15:20,"It's like. So, like. Yes. Yeah. It's essential. New Wayland, you're on the water. So pretty. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so New Bedford's been open for ten years. Tell us about Fall river. Yeah, so Fall river opened two years ago, and that project started because I was actually approached by a developer. So he had this project that was mixed use, commercial, residential, and he was kind of trying to put together different partners and thinking he was really intentional about who he wanted in the commercial space, and he really wanted coworking to be part of the mix."
00:15:59,"So he actually joined our space and, like, really went through a lot of effort to understand coworking, to attend events, to kind of build a relationship. So it was nice because we had, like, a basis of, like, a relationship to kind of move forward and make the deal. Yeah. Okay. And Fall river is also about 100,000 people. Okay. And how far from your current or your original space?"
00:16:28,"It's about 15 minutes away. And it's interesting because people do not move back and forth between cities at all. It's very. There's like a new Bedford thing and a fall river thing and not a lot of mixing, which is fascinating, but. So, yeah, they're close, but in some ways feels like very far apartheid. Yeah. Okay. So it's mixed use. Coworking is retail level. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, I don't have the update."
00:16:53,"How is that going? You put in office. I mean, you put in kind of a typical mix there. Yeah, yeah. Talk more about and the developer. Give you some rent abatement like incentive to be in the building and give you some time to get ramped up. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So when I started working on that space, I really wanted to do it as a management agreement. And I kind of spent a lot of time going around in circles trying to figure out how to make that work."
00:17:20,"I actually took your class on management agreements, and it was super helpful because I was like, oh, yeah, duh. Like, it's just not enough square footage, so it's not going to work. So it was too small to make that work. So what we ended up working out with the landlord was that he pays us a service agreement for the residents of the apartments to be able to use the space."
00:17:41,"And so it sort of works out as, like, we're getting a discounted rent on. On that space as well. So. And again, it's like a win win because we get a. The residents coming down, which kind of adds to some activity in the flex space. They just get a flex membership, so they don't get, if they want a desk or an office, they still have to pay for that."
00:18:00,"But, you know, we get discounted rent, and so it's. Yeah, it's a good setup. And so he's essentially investing in an amenity space for the building. Exactly. Like, that's kind of how it falls out. And are they using it? They are. Not as much as I thought, but one of the residents actually is renting an office, and she may expand to add a second office. So that's like, she's living the dream."
00:18:25,"She's totally living the dream. She's a color analyst. That's her business. Yeah. Okay. I mean, we won't go down the rabbit hole of. What is that? She's, like, everybody's favorite member. Like, she'll tell you what colors you should wear that are, like, you know, if you're a spring or a summer or fall or what have you. So she's a really cool member, and we have a couple others that come in from the space, from the apartments, but it's not a huge number."
00:18:51,"Yep. I know. I feel like people always think there's so much residential. Like, of course they're gonna join, and just doesn't always, like, work out that way. You think, oh, there's this built in demand right here. Yeah. Yeah. It was surprising to me that that's not the case, but it's sort of like, you never know. Yep. And. But I bet. Do they show it on tours to the residents that live there?"
00:19:16,"They do. I don't know if they've been doing that as much. I've seen less of the property manager kind of coming through with potential residents, although also, I haven't been in the space that much lately, so maybe it is still happening, and I'm just not aware of it. But, yeah, that was sort of. I think one of the important things was that, you know, them showing the tours and us kind of working with them to create, like, an onboarding ramp for."
00:19:38,"For the residents. Yeah. And even just like, one of those. Like, even if the residents don't use it, they feel like there's such a big value that it's there. Like, that perceived value, even though they don't. Exactly. The space is staffed at least part time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So both of our spaces are staffed from open from when the space opens, which is nine in Fall River, 830 in New Bedford until two."
00:20:03,"Okay. So it kind of gets them through lunch and sort of the main part of the day where people generally need things. The Fall river space is not staffed on Fridays. Cause it tends to be really quiet on Fridays. So it's just Monday through Thursday there. Yeah, I was in Chicago in August and we stayed in this condo building that was new and it had these really nice amenity spaces."
00:20:27,"It had a maker space in it, which was, it didn't have like a, didn't see a 3d printer, but it just had these very cool spaces. But it was not like activated in any way. You know, I had this really pretty coworking space and a kitchen. I could see like, if you just want quiet time outside of your apartment, like, that would be nice. But it wasn't super compelling in terms of the vibe or the environment."
00:20:55,"It was just another quiet space to go in the building. So I love it that the developer was like, no, I want a coworking space that's staffed and activated even if it's not sitting down hundreds of people all the time. But yeah, he actually works in the space too. He has an office there, so he gets it. He's into the coworking thing, which is great. Yeah, I love it."
00:21:21,"Okay, so the, yeah, so talk about, well, you just, I won't make you spend too much time on this. I know you just, and I missed it. Kat had you on talking about marketing. Yes. Yeah. Convo recently, I just saw that. I was like, sarah, you know, I hope she isn't sick of doing these kind of sessions, but yeah, I mean, you're in a smaller market, not tiny markets."
00:21:42,"You know, hundred thousand is totally respectable. But what are the levers you pull for marketing? And you have a marketing background. I mean, would you say your background is essentially marketing? Yes. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting because like, I was actually looking before this podcast to be like, oh, you know, are our leads still coming from where I think they're coming from? They are mostly still coming from organic search."
00:22:07,"So Google and Google, my business profile, which I think is partially because we are, we are the only player in our market. So, you know, if you're looking for coworking, going to find us. Right? Yeah, exactly. Good news, bad news. You know, the bad news of that is it's not like obvious. There aren't obvious levers to pull. Like, it's not like, oh, let's just run some paid ads and, you know, we'll get a ton of people coming into our space."
00:22:30,"So we do need to be more creative when we feel like there's a drop in inquiries. It's like kind of get back to the drawing board. Like, do we need to have open houses? Do we need to start getting out and going to events again. Usually it's kind of like a mix of those things. Our second largest source of members after Google is word of mouth. So it's either organic or it's like we're out in the community making sure that people know about us, which is just more work."
00:22:59,"It's like, oh, great, I don't have to spend money on Google Ads. Oh, bummer. I can't just spend money on Google Ads. Yes, exactly. You had a member who's testing Facebook ads for you, and those also, you feel like those just never move significant enough. Yeah, yeah. They've never been significant enough to be like, yeah, let's keep doing this as part of our strategy. So it's really, we've really just stuck with, like, as tempting as."
00:23:23,"Because I have a marketing background, I'm always like, ooh, I want to try this ad campaign, see if it works, and, like, measure everything. But as tempting as that is, it's like, nope, it's organic. So we need to stay on top of our SEO and make sure that we're still, you know, producing new content and crossing off all those boxes, and then it's the word of mouth. So are we showing up in the community?"
00:23:44,"Honestly, our nonprofit members are, like, super helpful in that regard. So again, it's like keeping those members happy, making sure they're engaged, because they will bring a lot of foot traffic in for us as well. Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's interesting. And I think it's important to kind of know that when you get into it, because you have to be willing to. It's not like you can't be a passive owner and just sort of pay somebody to run ads for you and your customers are going to walk in the door."
00:24:11,"You have to really want to be a part of the community and do that work, because otherwise, it's not sort of just if they build it, if you build it, they will come. I mean, to some extent, to your point, you're getting organic search volume. And do you feel like that's, I mean, in ten years, has there been a shift of, like, oh, people, you know, get it now?"
00:24:32,"Or. I mean, because, like, work bars and bosses, you know, they have, I don't know how many locations. They have a number of locations, yes. They must have started, I don't know, 2010 or something like that. So they've been kind of growing around us. Yeah, yeah. I think there's more awareness now. I think often now, like, when we first started, there was a lot more of just like, people don't even know what coworking is."
00:24:57,"And I think now at this point, at least everybody has seen we crashed or they've read something, but they've read about it in Wall Street Journal or whatever it is. But I think a lot of people in smaller markets don't necessarily think it's something for them. So they might have this perception that it's like this thing that happens in cities and startups, and it's like a very specific type of person that would use a coworking space."
00:25:21,"So often the challenge is like convinced, like telling the story to make that connection of like, oh, this is, you know, I could use this just to meet with my client one time a week or like, I could use this for my nonprofit or whatever it is. So I think that's kind of more of the work now is like finding the less traditional use cases and like, you know, connecting the dots for people."
00:25:43,"Like, you know, I love the way, yeah. The way you put that. And you have a newsletter and you do member features, and you're, you have a lot of ways to kind of tell, tell the story. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I definitely think a lot of it, it's really important to put the story out there in all those different channels, but a lot of it really does come down to one on one conversations a lot of the time."
00:26:08,"And I guess that's a benefit, too, of being a smaller space is like, you don't have to sell that many memberships to fill your space, so it is manageable, but it is also like, there aren't a lot of shortcuts. Like, yes, you do have to get out there. Yeah, hey there, I'm jumping in again. This time I'm speaking to those of you that are either getting ready to hire a community manager or who have a community manager and you would like to support their training and development."
00:26:40,"We know how challenging it can be for coworking space operators to create their own training and development material to support their community managers. And this is so important in terms of onboarding new community managers and supporting the growth of your existing community managers. And we're getting towards the end of the year, what a great holiday gift, end of year gift to give to your community manager. So the platform is really around a couple of things."
00:27:12,"One is access to a community of like minded folks. We have a very active, slack group with really wonderful questions that are posed every single day, and we find that's one of the biggest values we have. Community managers from all over the world. And this is an excellent group of community managers that have invested time and effort into getting better at that role. And they are the kind of folks that you want your community manager to be by and hanging out with, and they know their stuff or sometimes they don't and they ask questions and we help them out."
00:27:46,"So I'm in the group, we have coaches that are in the group to support them. So we love when they ask questions for things they need help with because the other aspect of the program is really around helping them get resources they need to make their jobs easier and to learn things that they can use in their role to be better at their job. So we provide some done for you resources like Google business posts, detailed event ideas, et cetera, that they can just kind of grab and go and use."
00:28:18,"And we also provide monthly resources that add to our training library so they can do our certification. And then we have a lot of electives that help them kind of get better at all the things that go with the role. So our community managers wear a lot of hats. So we break our content into industry knowledge for new community managers, community building operations, sales and marketing and leadership."
00:28:46,"So the leadership bucket is great for our more advanced community managers. We also have virtual office and digital mail training and coffee training for anybody who needs to know how to use commercial coffee brewers. So we have some of the I'm just going to give you kind of a sampling of content that we have. So in our community building modules, we have hosting your first member events, building community with budget friendly events, member event swipe files, our sales and marketing modules."
00:29:19,"We have tour training. We have the training on the full coworking sales funnel so they understand what that looks like. We have social media planning frameworks. We have. What else do we have? Three simple steps to an effective marketing newsletter. These are just some of our samples. Ooh. These are some of our best utilized topics. Demystifying the process of letting your coworking members use your address for their Google business listing, how to close a tour operations modules, how to set up automations, how to do a new member onboarding audit, simple ways to use AI to boost your productivity."
00:29:59,"We have over 40 courses in the program, so we cover kind of higher level topics. And then we also cover things that are timely like the CMRA updates, Google Business updates, etcetera. So we get together monthly to do official training and we also host a best practice sharing call, which is one of the fan favorites of the group and the slack group. So if you have any questions at all about the program."
00:30:28,"Don't hesitate to reach out. You can learn more and register@everythingcoworking.com. communitymanager. Now back to our episode. Okay, so tell me, you mentioned your spaces are staffed nine to two. Tell me about your team. Yeah, so we have two part time community coordinators. They staff. We have one in each location. We've tried kind of mixing them and having them move back and forth between the locations, but they actually, I feel like there was less job satisfaction because they didn't really have a sense of ownership over, like, the space and the community."
00:31:06,"So now there's one in each location. And then I also have a general manager, so she's sort of. She kind of oversees the part time staff and all the day to day operations. And then I meet with her on a weekly basis to kind of look at some of the more high level stuff. Okay, got it. So when it comes to, like, okay, you know, we need to boost our, you know, community engagement and, you know, kind of make sure we keep the leads coming in."
00:31:33,"Is that your GM, or do you still kind of get really involved in that? Yeah, it depends. That's definitely a conversation that will happen with me and her first because we're kind of in our meetings, we're looking at the scorecards and the financials, so it's sort of like, we'll be like, okay, you know, this is. We're. We're slumping a little bit. What do we need to do? And so there might be some brainstorming storming there."
00:31:57,"I still provide a lot of direction with the marketing because that's more of my background. So I'm kind of, you know, pushing that engine a little bit more. But I try to, you know, put out the ideas and let them run with it so that they still feel like there's some ownership and they're making some decisions about, like, the actual content of, of the posts or, you know, whatever it is they're doing."
00:32:19,"Yeah. So you're back to your part time team. Will, if one of them's sick, will they, like, do a little coverage? Like, they have a home base? Do they? Okay. Yeah. And it's actually, it's nice now because there's a general manager and we have me, so there's sort of. There's a lot of options to plug people in. I used to feel really, like, strained when it was like, me and one other person or, you know, me and two other people."
00:32:43,"So it's nice that we have a little bit of a deeper bench now. Yeah, totally. Okay. But you also have taken on a new role. So you're doing more than just coworking now. Tell us about that, and how does it fit into your coworking role? You might still be sort of figuring that out, but, yeah, I think there are a lot of people who do. Who don't only do coworking, who have other things that they do."
00:33:07,"And I think for some people, it's hard to imagine how do you balance those things? So I'd love to hear about, you know, kind of how you think about that and the transition. Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely still figuring it out because there's like. It's a lot. There's. I have a lot of balls in the air, but I'm working, so the green shuttle is my father's company, so it's actually a family business."
00:33:27,"So I stepped into a business development role with that company, which at this point, and I guess I should back up and say what they do. So they're a private transportation company, so we mostly bring people to the airport for flights and medical appointments as well. They're all hybrid vehicles right now. They primarily serve between the Cape and Boston in Providence. But we are expanding to have some more business on the south coast, where I'm located."
00:33:54,"So it's a very different business from total working. Yes. I'm not sure if I would have ended up in this if it weren't a family business, but it seems like an interesting. Kind of an interesting leap. Just try to dip my toes into that. But again, it is a family business, so it's also like, you know, my dad is, like, not ready. He's not like me. Like, he likes to be involved."
00:34:16,"So a little bit of a balance of me kind of learning things, and I'm getting involved in the marketing and, you know, figuring out where. Where it makes sense to kind of make changes and insert myself. So. So that's been fun. It's. It's definitely interesting. And it's like. It's interesting how you learn a lot of things about your own business by working on a business that's different from yours."
00:34:38,"Like, oh, this is how they. They manage this. Or sometimes I'm able to bring things in, too. Like, wow, they need a better process around payroll or whatever it might be. So it is a really great learning opportunity in that way to be involved in two very different things. Yeah. The cross pollinating, and it makes your brain sort of think differently. Yep. Yeah, totally. Okay. So are you working on that business from the coworking space often I am, yeah."
00:35:07,"So I go down to their office once a week, which I think is good just to kind of get the face to face and, like, get more of a sense of, like, what's going on in real time. But, yeah, often I'm going into my coworking spaces to work, which is super fun, especially now, like, some members don't actually know who I am, so I'm, like, under the radar."
00:35:28,"I'm just like, oh, hey, I'm Sarah. How's it going? Nice to meet you. And I get kind of pretend like I'm just another member, which is super. It's really funny. I enjoy that. Totally. Okay, so. And you can actually get work done in your space because probably, like, that's the irony of being a coworker space center. I mean, I remember that so much. Like, you certainly did. Well, do you have an office, or do you go, do you sit?"
00:35:53,"I actually have a dedicated desk, and it's very strategic. It's, like, in the back of the space. So, like, I'm behind a divider. Like, you can't really see that I'm there, but it is, like, I will say that I had to be very intentional. I had to kind of disappear for a couple months to break the habits of me being asked for things, and then I was able to go back."
00:36:16,"So there was some intention around the transition. But it's really great to be able to appreciate the community now and actually get work done and. And feel like I can go there without being attacked with a bunch of questions. So that time was so that your members could really see the teams in charge. Exactly. Go to them. I'm just here to work, or I'm not telling you who I am exactly."
00:36:42,"Like, why are we out of oat milk? Or. Yeah, exactly. Whatever the printer is not working, things like that? Yes. Okay. So, I mean, just tell me, thinking back a little bit, what did you need to get in? Like, did you have the things in place for your team to be pretty independent? It sounds like you have a weekly meeting. I'm guessing you chime in, you know, kind of as needed, but there are probably people listening who are like, yeah, I would like to, you know, show up in my space as a member and just have the team be in charge."
00:37:13,"But, you know, we even have in our community manager program, we have somebody who's going out on maternity leave, and she's, like, trying to wrap her head around, like, what does the team need to be totally self sufficient while I'm gone? So, yeah, I mean, were there things you needed to put in place or what did that look like? Yeah, I mean, step one is definitely documenting processes, and that was something that I was inspired."
00:37:39,"I read the e myth back in. Back in sometime during the pandemic, I think, and I was like, oh, my God, I need to do. I love that book. Yes. I totally relate to this frazzled woman that's baking pies. And so, during the pandemic, I had a lot of downtime because we reopened as soon as we could, but there might be five people in the space on a given day."
00:38:04,"So I was like, I'm gonna start working on this so that I don't go crazy. So I kind of had a start to all of our documentation of our systems. It took a long time to, like, trial, error, and update, and, like, we're still. It's a living document. Like, we're still very much working on those. But I think that was an important basis to have. And then I think I kind of, in some ways, it wasn't really strategic, but I just ended up being lucky."
00:38:32,"I started working with our mutual friend Abigail at Space Savvy Studio. I totally did that. Yes. And when I started working with her, it was. I didn't have a general manager, and it was more just like, I'm really sick of doing these things. Will you do them for me? But then I sort of formulated this plan to hire a general manager, and so it became much more like, help me kind of optimize the system so that the team can function without me and that the general manager can be empowered."
00:39:00,"So that was really helpful just to kind of have an extra set of eyes on building all the systems that we have. So I'd say that was kind of like, step two is getting someone from the outside to look at things in a fresh way and kind of help you. And then it was really. And then it's just a matter of finding the right people. And that was something that, like, I wanted to hire to promote someone to be a general manager for a couple years before I actually did, you know, and I kept hoping that, like, the person, like, maybe this will be the person."
00:39:30,"And I was like, no, it's not quite. You know, so when I had the right employee come along, I had to kind of, like, jump on it. We're do it. Yeah, we're doing it. This is. This is happening. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I think hiring and processes and delegating is, like, not easy. You think, oh, I'm just going to do all these processes and sops, and I inevitably forget lots of things that I think are like, I don't know."
00:39:57,"I just think are obvious and not. We hired somebody she's working on, like, our community manager newsletter, and she showed me the draft. I was like, okay, well, that's not the right font, and that's not the right whatever. And I'm like, well, I didn't write it down anywhere. Right? Like, I had done this whole loom video of, you know, with all the steps and thought, like, I had all the processes."
00:40:18,"So to your point, like, it takes time to just get enough detail. Yeah, you could kind of get everything right, the living document, but just getting that documentation down, because now, like, you can take vacations. I mean, maybe not. No. Yes. Yeah, no, I can take vacation. I actually spent a month in France this summer as part of my MBA program. So it's like, totally. And I did."
00:40:44,"I was in touch with my general manager, but we didn't. We suspended the weekly meetings. So we kind of had, like, asynchronous meetings where we would check in and we'd still keep the agenda, but I just kind of, you know, write notes in a Google Doc. But that's like. I mean, even like, two years ago, I would have never, couldn't do it. Ever imagined doing that. So. Yeah."
00:41:05,"Yeah. So I have a book. It's actually sitting here. I'll show it, probably. I don't know. You mentioned the Emiss, but it's called clockwork. It's by Mike. Wait, hold on. You can't see because of my background. Oh, there it is. Mike Michalowicz. He's the profit first guy. Oh, yes. Not everybody's a fan of that. I'm the same way. Like, he lost me after the 16 bank accounts. I do like his thinking about how to manage that, but clockwork's really super helpful in terms of thinking about, like, his goal is."
00:41:38,"Is basically try to be away for a month. Like, yeah, get all these things in place with the goal that you could go away for a month and the place would run without you. And talks a lot about delegating to teams and having them run, you know, through outcomes versus just, like, tasks, which is, I'm sure, a lot of what you've had to do with your team. And it sounds like your general manager has access to the P and L."
00:42:01,"Like, you go through numbers with her. I mean, she's really under the hood of the business so that she can really own retention and membership growth and things like that. Exactly. Yeah. The transparency is so important if you're holding things back, it's really hard for them to feel like they have ownership or that they have a stake in the game. Yeah, well, it's a great book. If anybody's looking for just a framework to start thinking about, and he's all about the documentation."
00:42:30,"It's just. Yeah, it's a good kind of. It seems basic, but it's a good framework to go through if you're thinking about working on that. Okay, so tell us about your MBA and your month in France. That's great. I also started my MBA during the pandemic, so clearly I was, like, going crazy. I was writing sops. I started a master's program. It's like, what else am I doing?"
00:42:55,"Yeah, what else can I do? So, yeah, so that's been really interesting. I mean, some. And you've done an MBA, so it's like, as a small business owner, some classes are much more relevant than others. So some classes I'm like, this is like the 10,000 foot view that is totally not helping the little guy in the trenches. I mean, it's interesting to have that perspective. But then other classes, particularly, like, the management and marketing, that was, like, really."
00:43:21,"I mean, I was able to do. I wrote, like, a really in depth marketing strategy for groundwork as, like, one of my assignments, you know? So it was, like, really cool to be able to nerd out on something that I'm actually doing. Like, oh, this is force yourself to spend the time in a tuition. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that has been really interesting. So, yeah, it's been."
00:43:41,"It's interesting. I mean, it's. I think it's a little unusual to do an MBA as a small business owner. A lot of people are sort of, like. That seems like overkill, and, you know, in some ways it is, but it was. It's also really opened my eyes to, like, growth potential and, you know, just thinking on a different scale. Not that I'm actually interested in scaling groundwork much more than it is, but it's interesting to go through the exercise of, like, thinking about that and."
00:44:08,"Yeah, I'm guessing there are things you can apply to your. To the. Sorry. Is it green. The green shuttle? Yeah, green shuttle. I love that name. Yeah, I mean, you know, as dad lets you kind of get into the strategic aspects because that's also a smaller business, but it's a smaller business. Yeah, there's a lot. There's some interesting stuff going on there with, like, because the. The company owns all the cars, so there's a lot more of, like, managing assets."
00:44:34,"Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And real operational kind of depth. Like, I mean, it's a legit. Would you call it a logistics company? I mean, is it logistics? Yes. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of logistics involved and, you know, flights are constantly changing, so, you know, you're monitoring flights and shifting drivers around and kind of making sure that people are still getting picked up even if their flight got delayed, so, yeah, definitely a lot of logistics."
00:45:02,"Yeah. Okay. Are you glad that you. Wait, so why were you in France? So through my MBA program, I was able to do an exchange where I did two courses and it was like, I got credit for two courses in like twelve days or 14 days or whatever it was, so. And a lot of, I've been doing a lot of my courses online here just because it is easier to fit into my schedule as a business owner."
00:45:24,"So I was really intrigued by actually being able to have face to face class time. The students in the program were from all over the world, so I got to interact with students from Canada and India and Norway and South Africa. So that was really fun. Yeah. And a month in France. We'll take that. Yes, in a month in France. Yeah, can't complain. Ate a lot of cheese."
00:45:49,"Totally. Cappuccinos, wine and cheese. The best. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, we're running out of time. So I want to ask, just so you've been doing this for ten years in two locations. Any like, overall or detailed advice, however you want to go on this, to people either thinking about starting a space or thinking about expanding. Like any, just like kind of key lessons learned. Like, okay, if I could do that over again, here's what I would tell my past self."
00:46:20,"Ooh, lizard. That's a tough question. I think, you know, especially, I mean, I can speak to being in like, a smaller market. Patience and persistence really pays off. Don't compare yourself to, like, the work bars and the industrious that are like, filling up, you know, within a year after opening. It's likely not going to be like that in a small market. So I think that's an important to, if you have that expectation from the get go and kind of along those lines, make sure that you have your own financial situation squared before, you know, make sure you have the right expectations about when you're actually going to be able to take salary out of your business."
00:46:59,"That's something that I totally screwed up and I had to scramble to get clients again after I opened because I was like, oh, shit, I'm like, yeah, I'm making any money. So that's a big one. And I think as far as expanding, I would say, at least for me, it's really been about finding the right partners. Having the right partners that really value what you're doing makes a huge difference."
00:47:22,"So I would advise against trying to force anything to happen. Yeah, don't talk somebody into you. But I mean, you got talked into them, which. Yeah, right, right. If they're kind of having doubts about your business model or uncertain about it, or they don't think they're going to make enough money off of it, but it's probably not the right partnership. So wait for those people that really see how what you're doing is either going to bring value to the city or to their development or to whatever project it is that they have going on."
00:47:54,"Yeah, I love that tip. Because then instead of defending numbers and how fast the ramp up is and is it not what you projected, like, they see the bigger. I mean, I'm guessing maybe there are difficult conversations, you know, sometimes no matter what, but the developer you're working with has this, like, bigger. Why? It's not just financial for him, I'm guessing there's certainly a level of financial interest, but I mean, but that's also so unique."
00:48:22,"I've never heard anybody say like, oh, the developer joined my space and got really involved and, yeah, that's, I mean, visiting the space is one thing, but, yeah, yeah, pretty incredible. Definitely, definitely. Yeah. Well, thanks for spending the time to share your story. It was really interesting for me to hear your path and I think people listening to the podcast, it's just always so good to hear like, oh, I relate to that."
00:48:48,"Or that's what it might look like if I started in a market like that. And congrats. I mean, ten years in two locations and now you're off on a, a new adventure and still have this business and a team that's, you know, rocking and rolling. So I'm sure it doesn't seem as easy as that all the time, but yes, sort of take a moment and appreciate, like, that's fantastic."
00:49:12,"So, yeah, it's exciting. We're throwing a big party for our ten year anniversary, so, yeah, awesome. Yeah. As one should, for sure. Yeah, it's. I'm not normally one to throw parties for myself, but I'm like, okay, this is like, I need to throw a party for myself. Totally do. Awesome. Well, thank you, Sarah, and congrats. Thank you. Yeah, this has been great. This podcast is such a great resource for the coworking community, so it's fun to chat with you."
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