287. How Dorothy & Dan Grew to Three Locations in a city of 28,000 in Upstate NY

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287. How Dorothy & Dan Grew to Three Locations in a city of 28,000 in Upstate NY

00:00:02 Welcome to the Everything Coworking podcast, where every week I keep you updated on the latest trends and how-tos in Coworking. I owned and operated Coworking spaces for eight years, and then served as the executive director of the Global Workspace Association for five years. And today, I work with hundreds of operators and community managers every month, allowing me to bring you thought provoking operator,

00:00:29 case studies and inspirational interviews with industry thought leaders to help you confidently stay on top of what's important and what you can apply to your own role in the Coworking industry. Welcome to the Everything Coworking Podcast. This is your host, Jamie Russo. Happy New Year. This is the first intro that I'm recording in 2023. Kind of crazy. My daughter had the week after New Year's off from school,

00:01:03 which is very disruptive for the working parents. So just officially getting back to it and super pumped to be back in the routine. And leading off with this podcast from Dorothy Rogers Bullis and Dan Bullis. Dorothy and Dan live in Saratoga Springs, which is in upstate New York. And you know how I feel about upstate New York, high five fist bump, whatever. I got to visit Dorothy and Dan over the summer when I was visiting my family,

00:01:35 along with a couple of other co-working space operators, which was awesome, and got to spend a little time with them. I love their story. Dorothy has been in our Flight Group program for years. I'm not sure if we went back to what conference we met at a GWA conference. I think she was a podcast listener, and she and Dan were just like me loyally going into the gym to work out every morning.

00:02:02 And that would've been when I was MCing and in charge of the conferences, so I'm sure had a lot going on. But I remember meeting them in the elevator or something and we just kind of connected. And Dorothy joined our then Flight Group program, which is now our academy program. So I get to hang out with her once a month and it was awesome to get to hang out with them live.

00:02:24 So a few things that I love about their story. So they're in a fairly reasonably small market. Saratoga Springs has gone through kind of an evolution over the years, certainly since they have been there. Skidmore College is there. It's about 28,000 people and they get a lot of summer tourism because there's a racetrack there, a horse racing track, I'm trying to think of what it's called.

00:02:47 Anyway, rabbit Hole. Here's what I love about their story. So they had some trepidation about whether or not it was gonna work. So they also run another business called D R B Interiors. And so they're like entrepreneurs through and through, and they do a lot of commercial work. They do colleges, they do hospitality. They of course do office space.

00:03:10 And so they just kind of had this inkling that this model was the right way to go. But this was years ago when co-working was fairly new. And they tell a pretty funny story about having to talk their bankers into supporting their loan to buy the building and do Coworking. So they bought their first building, I think I'm getting this right, they lease a separate building,

00:03:33 which is right on Main Street. It's an awesome little location. And then they bought their third building. So they have three locations in what we would call like a pretty small market. And so they're proof that that multiple locations, if they're the right product, market fit, can work. And so I love that. It's also a great indicator that there's no one size fits all model.

00:03:57 They're three locations are all slightly different and unique to the building and also unique to their evolution over time. So when you run a business, you're gonna learn a lot from the first one to the second one to the third one. And you should catch this one on YouTube. If you haven't followed us on YouTube, they give us a little tour of the third location and the system that they're using to build out the space.

00:04:23 And it's not just a wall system. They did their kitchen with it. It's super cool. It's called Faulk Built. They are wildly excited about the system and we talk about all the reasons they love it, and they kind of walk us through the space. So if you haven't found us on YouTube, or if you're a YouTube watcher, you'll get to check it out.

00:04:41 Just search for Everything Coworking on YouTube. And I think we'll be the only ones that come up. I also really like that they run two separate businesses. So they have three Coworking locations and they run these interior businesses, so two pretty significant businesses. And they make it happen. They're both super active, they're runners. They love the outdoors, they have grown kids,

00:05:04 you know, so they have some balance in their life, some things that they love to do outside of the office. But I often think some people think they're gonna go kind of all in on being co-working space operators. And that doesn't, you know, make sense for everyone. It depends on what your financial goals are. So I love that they're doing both,

00:05:22 and I always love it when they're, when we see operators building wealth through owning the asset. So Dorothy sat as an expert panelist. We run a How I did this series, and it was probably October, our academy folks have access to the recordings. We did a panel with several folks who own buildings and operate their Coworking spaces out of those buildings.

00:05:46 And I hope I did that because I think it's really inspiring and it's such an economically positive model if you can talk your bankers into doing a building. And speaking of the How I Did This series, we have our next, how I did this session coming up on January 19th. How I did this started a podcast that benefited my Coworking space. We have three expert panelists.

00:06:12 One of them is another upstate New Yorker, Kristy Alexander, founder of Work, Smartt Coworking and Meeting Space. She is host of the Just Off the Glen podcast. And Kim Lee, founder of Forge and host of the Building Birmingham Together podcast, Birmingham, Alabama. And Rachel Meyers, founder of the Collective Co South Shore and host of the Collective Co podcast.

00:06:33 So they're gonna share with us how starting a Coworking space, sorry, starting a podcast, can benefit your Coworking space. What goes into starting a podcast? How hard is it? What equipment do you need? And podcast themes that are relevant to a Coworking space and that are working for these folks. So you can go to Everything Coworking dot com slash H I D T for how I did this.

00:06:56 We also inserted a little link. If you scroll up onto your show notes, you'll see a resources section. And it is the first link. So if you're, that works on Apple podcast. Anyway, you can register right from your phone and join us live on the 19th. And again, our academy members get access to the recordings. We would love to see you there.

00:07:17 Okay. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Dorothy and Dan. Hold on. I wanna have some of it on video so that we can Oh, okay. Yeah, there. Will you do the contrast to the Sheetrock? I think it's so interesting to see both. They just look so modern and they're, so what's the cost comparison? Well,

00:07:38 So the cost comparison is, And there's the Sheetrock. If you just did regular Sheetrock like this, Yep. This is obviously more expensive. But if you're doing glass walls, the glass walls that we sell at FA are the same as any other glass wall. We're probably probably more competitive when you start adding in the Faulk built skins and those walls and you're just talking sheetrock to the Faulk built wall.

00:08:03 It's, we're more expensive. But We'll keep walking. We'll show you More when you take into the account. You can take these down, Move 'em, so you can demount this Jamie. You can take this whole office down And change 'em. Make it bigger, wider. So as you know, when you wanna make a change on drywall. Yep.

00:08:20 You knock the wall down and you throw it in the garbage. I know. Yes. And it's a big mess and dust and all the things. So here, here's like a little reception area, right? Yeah. Oh, I love those chairs Too. Oh, thanks. So those are fun. But look, so here, this is called the Faulk These skins.

00:08:37 It's another term for sheet sheetrock. So you'd pop out that panel, see it? Yep. And then you can replace it with something that's either faux marble, faux wood. Wow. Right there. You can write on that one in particular. Oh, okay. You Put any, any logo on these, whatever you want to do, it's really,

00:08:55 really Cool. Super flexible. Yeah. And I can take a TV set, put it right in the wall And insert it. Okay. Insert it so it doesn't Stick out down below. All the wiring goes in behind the panel. So yeah, you don't see Anything. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable, you know. But it's the same as any other wall line.

00:09:14 Wall lines aren't necessarily cheaper than Sheetrock, but here you'd have to take all this down. Yep. Get rid of it. It's a huge waste. Yeah. It's, you know, this is sustainable. Yeah. You own it. You know, you own it. You own all the parts and pieces like you were owning like in a rector set when you're,

00:09:32 when you're younger, you know, you own all those parts and pieces and then you can change out, manipulate it, make it bigger, smaller, larger. And it doesn't have to be white and gray, but it just so happens that's, you know, what we chose. I chose white and gray, right? So everything, there's grizzly. So yeah.

00:09:53 So we'll walk into, back into our conference room, which is super fun. You know, it's, Is it permitted? Is it permitted? Like, or does it need a permit? Or is it furniture? That depends on what you're doing with it. If if it, if you're not changing anything to the, to the facility, then you don't have to,

00:10:11 it depends on the area. Yeah. Like we, we didn't have to do that. It's prefab construction. So what happens is, is that I order this with all the electric, all the data set up. It's all set up. Yep. I get it in. And you basically click these pieces right in and the electric is attached to it.

00:10:31 So let me just show you this. Okay. So you're sort of pre specking what you need for, Right? So like we have our data box Yep. And electric. Yep. That's all. That's all set. Got it. You go in, you click in the, the horizontal piece and it basically clicks right in. Wow. And then This thing goes right on and it fits perfect.

00:10:57 Okay. So and you just pulled the, wow. Yeah. And so when you're putting this thing together, it all goes together. Everything has a barcode. Every single piece has a barcode. So you come into the site and You know exactly where everything goes. You lay out the frame and each office gets the frame laid out. The guys come in,

00:11:18 they do two cuts to every office. That's the base and the upper. And then everything else goes in. There's no more cutting. There's, you just put it in. So what's interesting about this product Faulk built, we use technology and construction. So instead of guessing and remeasuring and Yeah. Taking the wood in and taking the wood out and cutting back and forth.

00:11:40 I mean, the time saved is endless. Right. So you have less trades in here. You don't have painters or Yeah. Sheet rockers or tapers. There's no sanding, there's really no sound. You know, it's just everything comes in on one flat panel wrapped in plastic and that's it. There's no boxes, there's no waste. It's crazy. Yeah,

00:12:03 it was crazy. And how clean it is. Huh? Who does the install? Is it a special, like can it be a local team or do the, is it somebody specially trained? Yes. So I used my install guys, my furniture install guys. Okay. And They, they had never seen the wall system before. Okay. And you know,

00:12:22 I did that deliberately cuz we're the Guinea pigs. And I wanted to see how it was gonna go. Wanted the Yep. And they loved it. They absolutely loved it. And these guys had put up other wall systems before, but they had never seen this. And they said it was one of the easiest systems that they've ever been. It's crazy Jamie.

00:12:38 It's, I know. But that's why I wanted to see it. Cuz Dorothy, I can tell you like, just love it. Oh my gosh, it is so crazy. I mean, the world of construction is changing. Yeah. First of all, you can't find any labor anyway, right? So, Yep. So this Helps with the labor issue,

00:12:54 right? There's no delays, there's no waiting for ceilings to go in or carpet to go in. There's no waiting for that painter who got pissed off cuz everything was delayed and won't come back for, you Know, three. I just have that, I just had that today we are getting some painting done. And the painter called me and he was so mad.

00:13:11 Yeah. And I was like, okay, what's going on? How can I help? He's like, the place is amassed the contractor, you know, this and that, and it's dirty and like on and on. And he's like, and you know, if I can't get in there today, then it's weeks. And I was like, oh my god.

00:13:27 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's Crazy. This is the craziest thing that we've gotten into. It is so fun because, you know, the furniture world is fun, but it's basically lipstick at the end, right? It's like the kitchen counter at the end, you know, it's done right. The construction end is on the front end and you know,

00:13:46 we're able to help people in remarkable ways, you know, and it's sustainable and you own it. So what other product does That? So here's the really cool thing is that an architect can lay out your space based on what you want. And we can take their Revit file, put it in our system, which is Revit based, and spit out the exact same thing that you want.

00:14:10 Now that's not normally what happens in construction. So, yeah. You know, it's just a new way of doing things. And not only does it give you an incredible end result, it's, they've made it so easy to do for, for every step that it's foolish not to look at it at least. Yeah. Now is it more money than drywall?

00:14:30 Yes. But once you add everything into it, if you're really trying to do a nice space, if you're really trying to attract people into a space, this is the way to go. My space is inventive. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really beautiful. And it, I mean, I love the aesthetics. So for me, the versus the drywall,

00:14:49 it's like, no question. Do you, have you had people come in who prefer the drywall? No. No. Yeah. I can take you around. There's no drywall offices. Well actually there's two that are full. We filled those before we even had the walls up. Right. So that might have to be like, how you do it,

00:15:08 that for the, the next location, fill the drywall first and, Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you know what's interesting as far as Coworking goes, so I was thinking about this in preparation for this meeting. You know, if you have Coworking owners that are in a leased space, yeah. This is perfect for them because they then have almost leverage over the property owner because they own these walls.

00:15:37 So when they leave, you know, they could take them with them if they choose. Well, and then the threat, the threat to leave is, is more real. Because if you've built out, you know, a fairly dense office, build out your threat to, you know, you gotta rebuild the entire thing in the next location. And so cost Prohibitive.

00:15:56 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, so that's A, that's a great point for selling this product to Coworking businesses. You know, Dan, back to your point about, you know, the cost comparison. I'm also just hearing you guys, like, you installed it and you moved on. Yes. And you know, the time that you spend dealing with things that go wrong and the painter that's mad and the,

00:16:20 you know, you lose a lot of time in your business that way. And so that's a huge, you have to assign some value to that too, right? Oh yeah. Absolutely. And if you've already have people in the space, like you could have moved in your drywall people and then put the walls up and you're still of revenue from the drywall group.

00:16:36 So the drywall was pre-existing. Is that right? And then everything else just added around it. Yep. Right. Yeah. Yep. But it's also a great way to write, take a second gen space that has some pre-existing space that you wanna keep and then just kind of easily build around it. Yep. Absolutely. I mean, all of the,

00:16:54 the trades I had, I had two, two different trades. I had my install guys for furniture and I had a, basically a jack of all trades, took the electrical, he's an electrician too, but he installed the electric, we ran the electric up to the top, into the ceiling. And then he took the wires and hooked it up and It was done.

00:17:14 Yeah. That was it. No other trades, nothing. Like, no plumbers, no sheet record, no carpenters, no. It was crazy Jamie. Yeah. But this is the way it's going. This is the way the world is going. It's, it's offsite. Yeah. No, and this is, sustainability piece is huge. Yeah. And I'm sure you have other clients who really prioritize that as well,

00:17:35 I would guess. Oh yeah, you do. Yes, we do. Yeah. Bigger companies who like, you know, the whole E S G is just a priority, and so they're gonna start building that way. Yeah. It's so, it feels good, I'm sure to be, be part of that solution. It does feel good. And it's not just Coworking spaces that are using this.

00:17:54 Yeah. I mean it's, it's hospitals. Well that's what I was thinking about some of your other clients, like healthcare and healthcare and their institutions were like, yeah, we do a lot of building and they need to do it better. Cleaner. Cleaner. Yeah. Faster. All the things. Yep. And they want their environmental impact to be lower.

00:18:12 You can clean these walls with bleach. Oh, interesting. Wow. So the health so works really well for a healthcare setting too. Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. They love it. Yep. But you know, big companies like Chase Manhattan, they've standardized on Faulk built system walls, which is crazy. Right? I mean, all over the world.

00:18:28 All over the world. Then it's, I mean, not to name Drop, but there's huge companies. There's Nike, there's Coca-Cola, there's Bank of America. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And people are just finally seeing how important this material is because it, you're not wasting anything. Yeah. You know, the values are so much more than the,

00:18:48 than the negatives, you know? Yeah. Okay. So if you wanted to rearrange, you have your install guy come back, does the electrician have to come back? Or like, how practical is it to adjust? Okay, so let's say that you wanted to take it all down and move it somewhere else. You would bring, you would first redesign the new location and then you would come back and we,

00:19:15 all of this is documented, It's inventoried, right? So we know how many lengths, right? Right. All the product Like inventory is and what year. Okay. Right. Like, I'm working with a customer right now that is very interested in this product specifically because he can take it up, down and move it. It's a really fast growing company and he's,

00:19:34 you know, in a smaller space now and he wants to take it and move it to the next space. So we're kind of deciding on heights and sizes of walls so that when he does that and offices, so when he does it, it's just boom, move the next, move those 20 over and then keep moving. You would use the same guys,

00:19:51 you'd need an electrician and you'd need an install company for furniture. Or you know, you can use, You can use Finished Carpenter. Sometimes they're really good. Absolutely. You know? Yeah. But that's it. You don't need any other trade. Yeah. That's wild. So you would just build, when you're moving, you just kind of add to the system that's already there and it's,

00:20:09 you can lay it out. Cause you have the barcodes and so you know what you're missing. Right? Right. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So it's all there. And the factory would take all that information and say, okay, this is a new space. This is what you need to make that space To add to your old Right. Inventory.

00:20:25 Right? Yeah. To your point, like the technology, you know, d you said it earlier, I mean, it's super smart. It's really, And it's running the show. The technology is totally running the game. Yep. Yeah, Yeah. Hi, this is Josh Fried, c e o of Proximity. When we started Proximity, we did it for one reason.

00:20:43 We didn't like how hard it was to run our Coworking spaces. At first we tried testing different space management software on the market. And look, we found that we had to use multiple software solutions. Then we spent way too much time trying to sync them all together. And then we spent even more time training our staff. And worse yet, our members on how to use this overcomplicated solution.

00:21:04 We ended up going Circles, attempted to manage our software, instead of letting software do what it's supposed to, which is help run our business. Our members were frustrated. We were frustrated. We just didn't think it should be so hard to operate a Coworking space. So we built our own solution to make Coworking spaces easier to manage. All packaged up in one,

00:21:25 easy to use platform, refined by feedback from hundreds of Coworking spaces over the last five years. Proximity software is simple for operators and best of all members. And it is backed by our award-winning US-based customer support team. It's time to stop settling for overcomplicated software. Get software that was actually purpose-built for Coworking by Coworking Space operators. See it for yourself. Our team is available to chat with Everything Coworking podcast listeners.

00:21:53 And you can schedule your call today at Proximity Face slash Jamie. Wait, let's back up and talk about, you know, give us the intro partners in Saratoga, Coworks and D R B business interiors. Tell us about, yeah, tell us about you and your businesses. Well, we got into Coworking just by chance. You know, we bought a building in downtown Saratoga Springs,

00:22:16 New York. And we had been in the furniture world for years before that, bought this building. And it was an original Skidmore College, a small liberal arts college building in downtown Saratoga. It had lots of little nooks and crannies and people had heard that we bought the building and a lot of entrepreneurs had reached out to Dan and I and said, Hey,

00:22:36 is there a little office we could rent? And at the time, we were in the furniture world and yeah. And we were a new landlord, right? So we, Dan and I didn't really agree on it. All of It was very new To us. It was all very new And I didn't want anything to do with it, I have to tell You.

00:22:51 Oh, interesting. Okay. I was like, you know what, that's Not our business. No. The answer was no. They won a five year lease and take the hole downstairs or whatever. I don't care. But I don't want to talk about anything else. So we had a little bit of a, we were, we were at an impasse that weekend.

00:23:06 So we tell everyone over a bottle of wine or two, we decided we would discuss it over the weekend. And, you know, as small business owners and entrepreneurs, we weighed the, you know, the pros and the cons, the features and benefits. But what really came down to it, Jamie, was the fact that we had been there.

00:23:24 We knew how difficult it was to start. Right. A business. Yeah. We knew that you had to put your first month's rent down, your last month's rent down. We had to do triple net. We had to have a personal guarantee, which we did. We leveraged our house. And then you gotta work on your business. Right? So instead of working on your business from the get go,

00:23:43 right. So we said, you, you know what, let's just give it a year. So Dan and I agreed. Dorothy won for the short term. She won, but for, for six months. For six months, she was losing anybody. You know, we're a city. This is a 26,000 people city. It's, No, it's Small in the summer.

00:24:04 Gets about a hundred thousand bucks. So I, but we knew just, we just knew how hard it was for small businesses and that's what makes this country Yeah, great. All these small businesses Right. That have a backbone and have chutzpah to start businesses. Right. So I, we wanted to be kind of part of that. So now we did that in 2014 and now it's almost 2023.

00:24:27 So it's just me. Nobody knew what Coworking was. Right. Especially not in Saratoga. Right? No. And you know the story, the bankers didn't even know it. They were like, we don't get it. Why are you doing this? Right? So now there's quite a few other Coworking spaces and then up in this area. But, you know,

00:24:44 we'd like to say that we started the game. Yeah. But what was interesting was when the bankers got involved, cuz we wanted to do another location cuz they knew that our first business was doing well. So, but they didn't understand what it was at all. They were very, very curious. And so we, we took 'em out of their,

00:25:03 their little box there, their bank, and we took 'em to tour and we showed 'em what we did. All seven of 'em. Yes. They walked across the street, They're black suits and ties, you know, they come walking in and they're looking in the building and they go, you mean somebody just rents that small office? I said, yeah,

00:25:19 that guy's a, a marketing company. He has 45 employees across the United States and he runs it all out of that space right there. And they're like, now I get it. That was So lights went off and it was great. And they, yes, we got the loan. So that, so that was our second location and then this is our third.

00:25:40 So it's exciting. It really is. I feel like this third space went so fast because when I was visiting you this summer, I think we drove by it and I mean, drove by it. Yeah. Drove by it. Yep. Yeah. Yes. So we did all that. So we closed on the property I think in April or May.

00:26:00 And it needed some cleaning. Trust me, this was a funky building. Everything was red and white checked. Not at all. My taste Not the beautiful, like low Key No, We see in the background now, But this is it. I mean, it's crazy how fast it went up. And we can, you can do kitchens with this.

00:26:18 You can do bank lobbies, you can do sports stadiums and arenas and hotels and you can do every single thing right now except residential interior walls right now. And that's because of the fire rating. Yeah. But that's gonna happen. That's gonna happen. But Morgan's the owner of the company, Morgan Smith, he brings up a story. I just think this happened a year ago.

00:26:44 It was Chase Manhattan Bank, right? Yep. Yep. Chase Manhattan Bank needed to do the interiors. It was in Washington DC They needed to do the lobby, the lobby of this building because they had Condi Li Rice coming in. They had all these people coming in and they couldn't get Their marble. The marvel was on a container ship. Yeah.

00:27:05 So he had four weeks to do this. Oh my God. The owner called and said, I don't know if we can do this, but what do you think we can do? Because there, I understand you have a faux marble look And it looks awesome, by the way. Sure enough. Got it in. Got it. All done. Put it up.

00:27:19 It was, it was four weeks. Four weeks. You got an install on four weeks. And we're talking, I'm not talking about 12 foot high, we're talking 50 feet high. This, this lobby. And that was last October. And guess what? The marble just arrived. Oh my God. A year late. Stopped the marble. Yeah.

00:27:38 That's so funny. But also, so that's a good point. I mean that's a, a great story. But also for businesses that need to start generating revenue, like your space. I mean, that's just the other kind of cost benefit I'm thinking about is like, you put it up and then you started generating revenue versus waiting for construction because you can easily still be doing construction.

00:28:01 And we kind of talked about that earlier, but it's just, you know, reminded me again, It's so true. You know, if you compare like business people do, you know, this will be more, but in the end it'll be less. Cause you're gonna be getting rent, Right? You have cash flow quickly. Yep. Right. I mean,

00:28:17 Jamie, we rented the space before we even started construction. We had people in the space while we did construction. That's how easy, right? Because that's the other thing is, you know, that it's only gonna take x number of weeks versus like, well we're starting construction, maybe it'll be on time, but probably not. And we don't, we don't know how far off it'll be.

00:28:39 So No, we don't, and it's, It's relatively quiet. Like putting this up is re Yeah. Relatively quiet. It really is. It's fast. It it can be noisy. It Can be, but Right. It's fast. The noisy part is go, goes by quickly. Yeah. Okay. So Saratoga is 20,000 people now in the summer.

00:29:00 And now, wait, do you still have all three locations? I'm trying to remember is the first, they're all still, still going. So talk about like, what is it that that is driving that? Like first six months Dan thought he was winning and now Dorothy's clearly won. Yes. Yes. Many years later. Yes. Third location. And this one is 10,000 feet,

00:29:21 is that right? This area up here is 5,000. Then we have another 500 downstairs. Okay. We're Gonna be fitting out. Fitting Out. Right. And then there's a, we have a, a deli down below as Well. Love the deli. Who doesn't want a deli downstairs? Oh, it's great. It's Phenomenal. It's really good. Yep.

00:29:39 So what was the question? Question. Oh, so we drug Of supporting. Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious about, ok, so how's that work? The, you know, the community is now, you know, supporting three locations, obviously. Yeah. What's changed or what's evolved? I think the main thing that we do that's different than a lot of spaces in this area at least is we spend a lot of time making the space fantastic.

00:30:03 As opposed to okay, just throw it up and, you know, think of it as more of a commodity. It's not, it's, you know, people have a choice. They can work from home or they can go to a co-works. And if they find a really nice co-works where they can get a lot done, that's where they're gonna go.

00:30:21 See we come, I'm sorry to interrupt. We come from the other side of this too. You know, we have a commercial furniture and design business, so know how to make spaces. Yeah. Awesome. We know how to make people productive in their space. Right. That Florida ceiling, you know, that's important for a lot of businesses. They wanna have quiet,

00:30:39 they don't wanna hear someone else's conversation. So, you know, trends have changed. You have to keep up with that. You know, this space here is perfect for those that want quiet. Right. You can hear a little muffling in the background, but you hear that between walls at home and even in downtown offices in, in New York City, you know,

00:30:58 And especially through drywall. And through drywall. Yeah. Especially through drywall. Yeah. Yeah. Our, our s STC rating is a 42 and that's with no added acoustics. If we add more acoustics to it, we can get it up to 55 and We translate what's good? Well, regular sheet rock is Is about 37, 38. Oh wow. Okay.

00:31:22 Yeah. Yeah. So we're 42 and even the glass is 42 because we use an acrylic on the glass that's sound deadening. So it's a really, really nice feature to our Coworking space. Yeah. Now people have more privacy than they would in any other space In terms of visual. Can you frost the front? Yes. Okay. We're gonna opaque,

00:31:45 like you saw the other space in San, we're gonna opaque it. So you see, you know, so basically you don't see any of the desk desking. Not that you can read off a desk from a hallway, but it just helps. It's just another added layer of comfort and Yeah. That would be my only other vendor that I would have in here.

00:32:06 You know, I can't do that. You know, that's a special Yeah. Talent that comes in and does the Okay. Yeah. But easy. I mean, that's simple and Right. No sound, no best, no design. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, to answer your question, I think that's what has made us pretty premier in the market is because we have spectacular space.

00:32:28 We design it well, we keep it super clean and you know, we treat our, our members like guests, you know, they're, they, they are guests. Yep. You know, And you have great locations like physical in terms of maybe where they're located. I don't know. I would love to be in your downtown, you know, the little,

00:32:49 like right on the main street On Broadway. Yeah, Yeah. Above the patisserie. Yes. Everyone loves that. That's basically, Oh, that's right. I got a crew. Wait, did I get a chocolate? Yes, you did. Yes. I, After We went on a nice long walk, I got my chocolate croissant and, and and coffee for The,

00:33:06 yes, Exactly. Yes. So yeah, we're looking for another location. But to be honest, our model is not the second floor of a, you know, down an office complex. Yeah. That's not our model. You know, we like to repurpose buildings. We really do. Don't give me something brand new. I mean, never say never,

00:33:25 but you know, our model is repurposing and taking that ugly duck and making it a beautiful swan. Hey, I just wanted to jump in really quickly before we continue with our discussion. If you're working on opening a Coworking space, I wanna invite you to join me for my free masterclass. Three behind the Scene Secrets to Opening a Coworking Space. If you're working on opening a Coworking space.

00:33:49 I wanna share the three decisions that I've seen successful operators make when they're creating their Coworking business. The masterclass is totally free, it's about an hour. And include some q and a. If you'd like to join me, you can register at Everything Coworking dot com slash masterclass. If you already have a Coworking space, I wanna make sure you know about Community Manager University Community Manager University is a training and development platform for community managers and it can be for owner operators.

00:34:21 It has content training resources, templates from day one to general manager. The platform includes many courses that cover the major buckets of the Community Manager role from community management operations, sales and marketing, finance and leadership. The content is laid out in a graduated learning path. So the Community Manager can identify what content is most relevant to them, depending on their experience and kind of jump in from there.

00:34:50 We provide a live brand new training every single month for the Community Manager group. We also host a live q and a call every single month so that the Community Manager can work through any challenges that they're having or opportunities get ideas from other community managers, build their own peer network. We also have a private Slack group for the group. So if you're interested in learning more,

00:35:15 you can go to Everything Coworking dot com slash Community. Manager. Yeah. Well it's your superpower, so it's fun to do. Yeah. Oh, I Like that. So this is the second building you own the Broadway is a lease. Is that right? Yeah, that's true. That's right. Yeah. He won't sell it. We tried. Yeah,

00:35:34 We tried multiple times. Nope. But he, he wants us to do, another landlord wants us to do another space for him in another area In another town. And Not this town. We're considering it, but it's really not our model, so we're probably not gonna do it. But You never know. Yeah. He may come down. Yeah.

00:35:55 It's the price, it's it's, it's the rent that he wants from us. Oh. You know, he might come down, let's give him a little time. Yeah, Exactly. Yeah. If the numbers don't work, it's a simple math equation. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Yeah. There's no way to Make it. I'm curious about the bankers,

00:36:11 cuz I actually had, I get questions about this all the time. It sounds like you guys have had relationships with your bankers and they got it. Is it a local, I'm assuming it's a local bank, like you bought the building, they know you're gonna do Coworking in at least part of it. Is that an issue for them or, Well,

00:36:32 well we had the deli, you know, downstairs. Yep. So that kind of like helped a lot. Oh, to get the building. To get the building right. Yeah. And then as far as putting the Coworking space in, they were pretty, They're good this time, but you know what, our bank is a local bank. You know,

00:36:49 you get a loan with them, it's like getting into Harvard. Okay. You know, it's like, wow, you did, you got a loan from them. Cuz they're so strict on so many things, but, Well, we had to give him our second child, but that was By guns. He Was acting up anyways. But no, it is a local bank.

00:37:10 They are very conservative. Very conservative. They're conservative. Okay. It Might be easier or maybe not easier with maybe bigger banks. I don't know. I think probably not. I just was, you know Oh, curious. Because I think the bigger banks really probably most success I hear are local banks, but okay. Usually maybe not so conservative, like local banks that have some sort of mission,

00:37:33 you know, to support the community and to lend. So, so let me, let Me tell you what I said to the seven bankers in our Coworking space on Broadway, if you can visualize it. They were all standing around that big long table that I have there. And the guy said to Dan, why, why would you do this? This just seems like a lot of work.

00:37:50 And I said, okay, I'm gonna answer. We want everyone in our Coworking spaces to be come so successful that they go to you for a loan for something. Exactly. That's what I thought when Dan was pointing out the marketing guy, I thought, oh, they want his business. Right. If he's gonna grow. You know, so like Right.

00:38:09 Don't they want, they they want this. And that's when happening, that's when it clicked. He's like, okay, yeah, I get it. I get it. You know? Right. Yeah, you're right. Okay. Can you talk about, you guys are sort of multi-passionate entrepreneurs, interior, business, co-working, operating business, and real estate owners.

00:38:31 Yeah. Can you talk about sort of, I I, there's, I love a lot of, lot of things about your stories. I think sometimes people think sort of narrowly about starting an operating business and signing a lease and that's, you know, what they're going to do. And I love, you guys have another business. You're building wealth, owning the building,

00:38:50 and you've got this second operating business. I don't know, share, you know, your perspective on maybe why and is it ma you know, manageable, you do it together, which is also, you know, interesting And you, well, there are a lot of questions. Okay. I know. Sorry. So the one thing that I, I go back to is my father would always say,

00:39:08 and my parents were big entrepreneurs, right? My father would always say, you know, the businesses that you don't think are really making it or really making it like the porta-potties. Right? So don't think all the glamorous businesses, right. There were certain things we didn't wanna get into food. Like we don't no food. We don't understand it. And We like to Eat it and we like to eat.

00:39:30 Right. So there are a few things that we, we really don't wanna get into, but what we've gotten into is things that we're passionate about and things that we have found a need for. So this Faulk built wall system came organically. We needed to find a, a solution to the problem that we were Having. Right? So we were, we were building this,

00:39:49 we were buying this building and we were actively looking for just a wall system, a glass wall system. That's all we were looking for. And we came across by asking different manufacturers of different products about this kind of thing. They said, oh, you should talk to Fabu. And so we did. And that's how we got into the Fabu wall system,

00:40:11 which is also perfect for our design and construction, commercial furniture business. That all works well together. I think we are are doing okay. I mean, tomorrow we could lose everything. You gotta understand that. And that's kind of, you know, we're just deal, you just, you just deal with it, right. You just, you gotta learn to live.

00:40:30 That's an entrepreneur. Right. But I think if you stay within kind of the wheelhouse of things that go together, yeah. You're probably better off than if you decided to do like a one-off, like buy a marina or something. Like that's not gonna work for us because we'd always be on the lake and not here. I would be No, but Faulk Built is an example.

00:40:54 We were looking for one thing and we got something unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. And a fabu branch, were the northern New York Fabu branch for Fabu. And that's All of New York state. That's huge. But we can sell anywhere. So we can, we could sell to any, anybody anywhere as long as we had a relationship with that Right. Client or that Coworking space or whatever.

00:41:18 But we do believe in this. I mean we went all the way out to Calgary and we, I personally actually put a wall up, believe it or not, You only swore one. I, I used one cuss word. That was it. I was very impressed Because they snapped together. It's super cool. It's like Legos but metal. Yeah.

00:41:36 And these skins. It's really cool. Wait, so that's how we, that's How we got into all of our businesses. That's how we did it. It's just organically and you know, we've been together as you know, a hundred years. Right. So That's how you do the math different if you work together as well. Right. And Live together like dog years.

00:41:52 Yeah. Together years. Oh that would be more, that's actually, Yeah, the multipliers hire. Totally. So the space will also serve as a showroom, is that right? For your clients? Yeah. Yep. Oh yeah. We've had multiple contractors come in. Everybody that signs a lease with us says that they understand we can come in and,

00:42:13 and show the space. But yeah, I mean we have contractors coming in, they're like looking at these walls and they're shocked. They're like, wow, you're doing all this. And it's prefab cuz everybody's having the same problem in the construction Business. Yeah. Getting material, get Anybody to work. Yeah. They can't find any labor and then everything shuts down.

00:42:34 If we, when we sell massive jobs, I can bring labor in from Canada, from the corporate office and we, well The time is to be American labor too. It can be American labor too. Oh yeah. We have big sections of headquarters through around the country here in the United States. And I can bring, we can bring these people in and put everything up super fast.

00:42:53 Yeah, yeah. Like the painter who was mad this morning, he's like, I just sent my four guys home and now they don't have work today. And you know, there's a lot of, it's challenging for the whole system when it's not predictable. Oh yeah, exactly. Yep. Exactly. But again, it's technology and construction together. You know,

00:43:10 the prefab world has changed dramatically from those Sears home kits back in the fifties. I mean, it's so different. This is engineered offsite construction. So if you wanna, if you don't wanna call it prefab cuz you don't like the term it's engineered offsite construction that is just brought in and put up. No. So it's not rated for residential, but you think it will be.

00:43:34 Oh, oh yeah. Totally. Absolutely. Interesting. It's a matter of time because of the fire rating for residential use. Yeah. So you showed me the kitchen is that it's like panels that you put, so then like you put handles on things and Yeah. Okay. I'm trying to picture like how it, what the components are When that comes in.

00:43:56 That comes in, everything comes in in a a crate and all flattened out, flat Box flat. It's like a Kia, but better. Yeah. You can put it together And Right. And how many times does Dorothy swear when she has to put together something A Kia? Yeah, I can't, the English, I can't find the English. Right.

00:44:17 Yeah. But I mean that comes in and it was, so once again I had my installers, my furniture guys install and I, I keep using that as an example because yeah, those guys are used to in, you know, putting together furniture. Right. Picking up chairs and putting 'em down. You give them a kitchen to do. It's not their wheelhouse.

00:44:34 You know, you wouldn't want to give them a kitchen from Lowe's or a kitchen from Ikea, god forbid. And so this comes in and the guy that installed it said, oh this is great. Cuz it came in with a, with a base that had levelers on it and you put that down and then you put the next, the on and then you put the doors on and it was all done.

00:44:52 Had to cut off a hole for the water. That was it. It's millwork, it's crazy. It's, yeah, it's wild. Beautiful. Yeah. And it matches everything, you know, by design, I mean it's just, it was so easy. And then I purchased a solid surface countertop from a local manufacturer distributor here in town. Yep.

00:45:15 So also Faulk built does pods. So we do ceilings. So we're actually gonna put two Faulk built pods right out here attached to one another. Like big foam booths, right? Yeah. They're gonna be eight feet by five foot. Oh, nice. And they're have their own ceiling with HIPAA filters, the Works. Okay, got it. Yeah.

00:45:37 Yeah. We're just waiting for them. Yeah. And they're gonna be right here. So I'll have two more sources of income, which is great. So since you're in the interiors world, what are you seeing in terms of like your, your office clients? How, what are they thinking? What are they doing? Since you're like boots on the ground?

00:45:56 Yes. Well now that they're coming back to the office right. Our clients are reaching out because a lot of them want to refresh their offices because they want their employees To wanna be there. Yeah. Right. They want their employees to be there. Yeah. So we're finding that, you know, there's no more hoteling where everyone sits at one table next to each other.

00:46:18 People want their own space, they want their own office. Whether or not it's a day here or a day there, or maybe three days or five days a month or whatever, they still wanna be able to go to a dedicated desk, be able to put their stuff, lock it up, and still be able to, you know, go home every once in a while for meetings or appointments for doctors appointments or kids.

00:46:40 Yeah. So it's flexibility, but individual space is still wanted. Right. And a lot of companies are, are making the mistake of like doing this hoteling kind of experiment where they're taking less space, they're coming in, they're saying, okay, we're gonna do 250 work stations as opposed to the thousand that we actually need. Yep. And people are gonna sign these things out as we go.

00:47:08 And that's how this is all gonna work. And nobody has their own personal space. So I, and we'll see how it works, but I look at it and I go, you know, one of the nice things about our Coworking spaces is if people have their own space Dedicated Yeah. It's Theirs and they love it. And when somebody doesn't have that,

00:47:25 you know, there's less of a point of coming into the office. Yep. And if that's the objective to drive people back to the office because they're more, the collaboration and the efficiency and effectiveness of the employee increases, they're doing it the wrong way, which means they're gonna do it once and then they're gonna have to redo it. They're Gonna call you again.

00:47:46 Right. Yeah. That's tricky because you wanna tell them, I'm sure what you know in your experience works, but also, oh, And I, I do, We tell them. Okay. I tell 'em point blank. I say, guys, don't spend a lot of money on this space right now. Okay. Right. Because you don't know.

00:48:02 And we always say that, you know, even when we're doing, even before Covid hit, we'd always say, okay, you, you've got the base of this done, but you haven't been in this space yet. You have to figure out what else to do after you spend a little time here. And then they start ordering other things when they realize,

00:48:17 okay, this is gonna be more of a collaborative area than something else. Yep. And that's really what I'm telling them to do. You know, get your sit to stand tables, get your, you know, low walls, your chairs, your task chairs, but realize this layout is gonna move around a lot. It's gonna evolve. And you want flexibility.

00:48:34 Right. You really do. And you, you really want these people to come back to the office because you wanna, you wanna keep and maintain that culture. You know, having people at home make appointments with other team members to have a conversation is such a time waster. It's such a time waster. I mean, you and I are doing this right now because you're on the other side of the country.

00:48:56 I know, right. But the fact of the matter is, you know, when people aren't together, business slows way down. So here in our co-working spaces and what we tell our clients that are gonna do a refresh is you wanna design. So people want to be here, they wanna be in this new space and they want to choose to come.

00:49:17 Right. And so that's how, that's our challenge. Let's make this so friendly and so nice to be in that people want to be in the office and they want to work, then they're efficiency goes way up. Well I know, I feel like your 250 cedar is like a, making a big bet on, you know, hot desks. Like which Right.

00:49:44 We know from our business is hard to sell. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Jamie, perfect, perfect example. Yeah, It's really hard cuz you always have the loud talker. Always. I mean, I know there's nothing you can do about it. Right. But give him his own office with a seal, a walled ceiling, like and a door.

00:50:01 Right. And then opaque it because if he's a loud talker, he's typically like, like a whirling dervish. Right? Yeah, totally. Yeah. Exactly. What else? What else should we talk about? Back to the entrepreneur question. I just think that, you know, Dan and I have evolved. We've never been just entrepreneurs. I mean,

00:50:23 you know, that we, he came from a corporate world and we moved all over the country and you know, we like working for ourselves. Is it difficult? Totally. And not all of our co-working members are entrepreneurs. A lot of them work for very large companies, but they choose to be here because they want to work. You know, I mean,

00:50:46 there's a lot of people that aren't working anymore or choosing not to work or ch changing their lifestyle, but create space that people wanna be in and find businesses that match your wheelhouse. You know, Dan and I work all the time. It's not for everyone, but we enjoy it. We get a lot of people that burn and turn, they come in,

00:51:07 they, they work for 12 hours, 16 hours. I don't see 'em for three days. Right. And then they come back. Yeah. And you Know, That's, there's, that's what they do. But they come back to their office, they know exactly. They, all the papers are still there. You know, so I guess it really depends on the future of the Coworking space in the certain city.

00:51:28 I mean, I couldn't tell you what the market's like in x, y, z city in the middle of the country. You know? I mean, you really have to know where you live and who the people are. You know, we've always been involved. So we, we didn't just like drive down the street and say, okay, this looks cute.

00:51:45 Let's just open a Coworking space. I think you really need to do your research, find out what makes that town tick. Yeah. Why it's successful. Yeah. And Jamie, you've said that a lot in your podcast. You know, know your space, know your business, or know your city. Yeah. Know your, your Surrounding and the people.

00:52:02 I mean, to Dorothy's point, like on that first space you had that intuition. Like you could picture the people who were gonna sign up. It took a few months, but It did. I shoulda made a on that I would've won. We're very Competitive as you know. Yeah. You two are so, so funny. It's unique. Yeah.

00:52:21 When couples can work together. Well, just for the record, I'm still, You're Yeah. On the points. Wins on the points. Okay. So you work a lot. How do you keep some balance? What do you do for fun? So during Covid, literally we were the only ones working. The truckers were, the truckers were coming in with all this furniture and stuff.

00:52:47 And my, no one was allowed to work. No one was allowed to leave the house, but somebody had to unload the truck. So I'm down there unloading stuff and you know, guys are coming in, they have no masks on. I'm like, I'm like, guys don't, your company doesn't give you a mask. And they're like, no,

00:53:03 there's no masks out there. Anyway, we're doing all that. We're keep trying to keep the business alive. And, you know, things did slow down. So, and that really gave us time to pause. And you can't really figure it out, but you know, you just sat, you reflected, you know, I mean, you have to work,

00:53:24 the economy has to keep going. Right? I mean, is furniture the way that it's gonna be like it was 20 years ago? The furniture industry? No, because people are working differently. I mean, just think of the another analogy or, or similar. Nobody's wearing blue, dark blue suits with a red tie and a white shirt anymore every day to the office.

00:53:45 Right. It's just things change. That's true. I I never wore jeans to the office before. Covid? No, we always Oh, interesting. Oh no, he always had a suit. I was a suit suit guy. Wow. Always. So it's pivoting, you know, I think that's really what we do. Yeah. But how do we,

00:54:03 the question was how do we Make, we work out a lot. Yeah. We work out, we work out every day hard. And then on the weekends we, We go to a camp. Yeah. We have a small camp and we, and we just kind of hang out there and then start again. You know, we're pretty simple. You know,

00:54:22 we, our kids keep us grounded and, and we realized, you know, every day is a blessing. So, and we're very thankful for that. So what are you most excited about right now? My new hip. Oh, that's right. What is the new hip happening? Not that I'm counting, but two months from yesterday. Oh, Good soon.

00:54:40 Yeah, Yeah, yeah. That's All right. Other than that, we're, you know, honestly, to be very frank, I'd like to find another building, but, you know, Ooh, okay, now that the cat's outta the bag, right? Yeah. That's definitely on the horizon. It's just location, location, location. That's my opinion.

00:54:59 Yeah. You know, it's gotta be the right location. You're Right. Yep. We're very excited about Coworks and where that's headed and the different avenues that are out there now that were never there before. Yeah. You know, we're, we're, we're talking to people that are, you know, trying to grow a hundred person business and it's 10 people and that's fun to be with that kind of a group.

00:55:20 Yeah. And, you know, then we're talking with people that are billion dollar company that, you know, wanna put 50 people in our Coworking space, and it just, there's a list of different people out there that, that weren't there before. And that's really cool. And then we're really, really excited about the fabu wall, prefab construction, because we see huge opportunity.

00:55:43 So I'm just picturing you guys over your glasses of wine on the weekend, talking about should we do something about these 50 person, you know, requirements and then you're talking about wall systems. Yeah. Well, you know, I, I'm, I must say it all flows. Yeah, it does. The one thing that really got us this rented so quickly is because it was,

00:56:07 it was like cash and carry. It was like, it was like, they walked in and they were like, because tell her story, it's, Oh, yeah. Well, so like, I sold this guy, This is a great story guy. I Sold this guy furniture over a year ago, and he wanted it right away. It was,

00:56:21 it was actually used furniture. It was nice. It was only six year old desks and stuff, but he really wanted it quickly. So I went in, I, I took care of him, got it all set up for him, and he was ecstatic. Pat didn't hear another word from him for a year. He was in another location. Right.

00:56:39 He was in a leased location. Right. He calls me up, he goes, Dan, I need, I need another 30 offices. 30. And I go, alright, where? And he tells me, I, I'll meet you over there. So we go over there, I got my designer with me and, you know, we're measuring the space up and I'm telling him how I'm gonna put the Faulk built walls here and I'm gonna do that over here.

00:57:00 And So he needed walls and furniture. Right? Right. He got into a little bit of a disagreement with that particular landlord, and Dan made a comment, Dan just made a comment to him and he goes, well, why don't you just come to my coworker's space? Well, it was in front of us. Okay. The arm argument was in front of us,

00:57:21 and my designer and I are just sitting there going, oh no, don't say anything. Just, Yeah. Don't say anything. We're not here. Not here. Yeah. And so we walk outside and I, I say to him, do they always treat you that way? And he goes, oh, that's the good guy. The other guy's even worse.

00:57:39 And I don't know how I'm gonna deal with this, through this whole, I gotta run a company and I gotta do all this stuff. And I said, you Know why? So Dan brought him over here, Why don't you come see my space? And he rented it done. So he didn't have to put pay for walls and he didn't have to pay for furniture and he could move in ready.

00:57:57 It was like moving into a finished apartment. You're like, where do I sign? Right. Exactly. Right. Pain free, gone pain free. Yep. Pain. What did he do? Did he, he didn't take 30 offices, He took 20 Here. Oh my gosh. That's wild. Yep. Right. And he gets to do that with you too,

00:58:20 who would never get into an argument with him. I, I told Myself, he's a nice guy, Jamie, this Is what I said. They were treating him so poorly. I said, I said, Jamie the way I look at you as well, like, you're my customer and I want to please, like you walk into a high end hotel.

00:58:38 I'm that guy that greets you and says, how can I help you? How can I make you stay? Wonderful. That's what we do as Saratoga coworkers. And that's not how anybody else treats you if you're in the, in the commercial Lease leasing world. Yeah. And They just Don't. Totally. Yep. They take your lease for five years and your personal guarantee and then they hightail it to Boca.

00:59:00 Right. Exactly. So that's what we do. We really treat people here at Saratoga Coworks, like they are our guests. You should start a school for the landlords in town. Oh. Oh no. Oh no School. I'm not gonna tell anything. Oh, I don't think you undo that, that type of approach, which is why things are changing so much and which is why Dorothy's ready for the next building,

00:59:30 so Oh Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know what's gonna happen with those huge office complexes that are losing their tenants in New York City. Yeah. Yeah. But even in, you know, the suburban areas. Yeah. I, I don't know what's gonna happen. And I think what we've learned recently is that some of them are going through the redesign of making them apartments,

00:59:51 which Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Yeah. If it works. Yep. If it works, yeah. Big if, Yeah. Because of the fire rating. So this was fun. I know, thank you for taking the time to do this and for giving us the tour and cuz we post this to YouTube, so we'll get to see the,

01:00:08 the tour of the wall system. Oh, Oh, awesome. Fun. Yeah. And for sharing your story, I just, I love, well I think the two of you are just fantastic and super smart and interesting and fun to talk to. And I just love the, you've got a lot going on as entrepreneurs and business owners that I think is really interesting and yeah,

01:00:28 I just wish, I wish you both the best and I'm glad you took the time to share your story. Well, thank you. And we feel the same way about you. We really do. I do. And we'll go on another long hike once I get my new hip. Totally. We'll celebrate, keep me posted a hundred percent. Sounds good.

01:00:43 Thank you again. Thanks. Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you like what you heard, tell a friend, hit that subscribe button and leave us a rating and review. It makes a huge difference in helping others like you find us. If you'd like to learn more about our education and coaching programs, head over to Everything Coworking dot com.

01:01:08 We'll see you next week.

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