281. Combining Fitness and Coworking for a Healthier Workplace
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TRANSCRIPTION
281. Combining Fitness and Coworking for a Healthier Workplace
00:00:02 Welcome to the Everything Coworking podcast where every week I keep you updated on the latest trends and how-tos in Coworking. I owned and operated Coworking spaces for eight years and then served as the executive director of the Global Workspace Association for five years. And today I work with hundreds of operators and community managers every month, allowing me to bring you thought provoking operator, case studies and inspirational interviews with industry thought leaders to help you confidently stay on top of what's important and what you can apply to your own role in the Coworking industry.
00:00:44 Welcome to the Everything Coworking podcast. This is your host, Jamie Russo. Happy post Thanksgiving for those in the US It was a good weekend year. I mentioned before the holiday I was looking to do some crafty projects with my daughter, which is a lot of fun. And I'm start, I'm working on a Christmas tree skirt that is not done yet.
00:01:05 I'm gonna post some photos to my personal Instagram when they're done. That's my holiday, one of my holiday projects. And then I'm gonna attempt to knit my daughter a hat. I'm gonna start on that this week. She is out of town for the whole week at Outdoor Ed. It's a little weird to be without her. So I have a very exciting guest today,
00:01:29 Ben Wales. He is the co-founder of The Wilderness Fitness and Coworking in Minneapolis. Before we dive into Ben though, we have a lot of excitement coming up and I wanna make sure you are aware of it. If you are not on our newsletter list, you should get on it because otherwise for sure you're missing out on things that could help you in your business or just give you a different perspective or connect you to other operators.
00:01:58 You can sign up for our newsletter on the homepage of Everything Coworking dot com. Just scroll to the bottom and you'll see our opt-in form. So get on there so you don't miss anything. So this is the last couple of days to sign up for our Design to Thrive in 2023 workshop. If you want to workshop your 2023 business planning along with us,
00:02:20 we have a great group of folks that are signed up. It's a two session, one and a half hours each session on the eighth and the 15th. I think you can get all the details at Everything Coworking dot com slash 2023 and see if you want to join us coming up in January. I know this is far away, this is why you need to buy the newsletter.
00:02:45 We are doing a how I did this session on how I started a podcast that supported my Coworking business. You don't wanna miss that. We just did how I did this session on warehousing and it was so good. If any of my panelists are listening, thank you so much. We had a great group of panelists and it was super interesting. I am fascinated by that model and always love learning about new things.
00:03:11 And our academy members have access to those recordings. So if you missed the live session, then you can grab that in your academy membership. If you're not in the academy but are interested, you can find that on our website as well. And Giovanni and I for the Flex Uncensored podcast just did a live session with Jamie Hodari, which went live on the podcast.
00:03:32 And we're doing a live recording with Ryan Simoni, who's CEO of Convene on, I think it's December 15th. So you could also register for that on the website, although now I can't remember where it is. I think it's Everything Coworking dot com slash live. So we'd love to have you join us for these events. Again, if you want them all listed out for you,
00:03:55 get on our newsletter list and we will make sure that those show up in your inbox since you're probably driving around right now and can't write any of those down. Okay, onto Ben, our interviewee for today. Ben reached out to me with a business question and I was so interested in his model that I said I will spend a little time with you if you will be on the podcast.
00:04:16 So we did a trade. So Ben has a Coworking space that has heavily integrated a fitness component. If you look at their photos on the website, he has, I don't know actually what they're called, like gymnastics rings, hanging from the ceiling over the desk, which I totally love. So there's a full gym on site and folks can join that or not join that.
00:04:41 And then a Coworking space and the whole space is 12 17,000 square feet. So as a first time operator, he and his business partner dove right into 17,000 feet. They have 2000 feet of event space in a multi-purpose room. He has a speakeasy style bar that the landlords actually built out. They have a game room, a 40 person media room, and then 4,000 feet of dedicated fitness space.
00:05:05 So you know, 6,000 of that space is fitness space and event space essentially. Super interesting. They're doing really well on their events, more evidence that kinda gatherings and events can be a great revenue stream for Coworking space owners. He kind of walked into a very cool scenario where that was all built out and they just had to capitalize on it and market it and they're really working on that.
00:05:28 I will note they have some offices with no tops that they're having trouble with. And this is a universal truth. It's hard to sell offices with no tops, not impossible, harder. So be aware of that. So that's one of the challenges he's trying to work through in his business is how to get that office revenue up and you know, does he have the right product mix,
00:05:49 et cetera. So we dive into all the things. Who uses the gym membership, what does event rentals look like? All the things. So I think you're really, I enjoyed this interview a lot. Thank you Ben. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Ben. I am here with Ben Wales, who's the owner of The Wilderness Fitness and co-working in Minneapolis.
00:06:13 Are you in Minneapolis proper? Like Yep. Right in the heart of Minneapolis and Uptown. Okay. In uptown. Got it. I know the folks from Fueled Collective, which used to be Coco, which used, wait, I think that was their original name. They've been around for a long time. Yeah, you got the story right. Yeah,
00:06:29 it was previously Coco, I believe they were the very first Coworking space in Minnesota and now they're Fueled collective. Totally. Yeah, I know Kyle and hold on, I haven't had all my coffee yet so I'm blanking on the other one, Kyle, and it'll come to me in a minute. Anyway, thank you for joining us. I cannot, I have so many questions for you,
00:06:48 I cannot wait to dive in. So for everybody listening, Ben emailed me with a business question and I was like, what is this Coworking and fitness space that he has? I wanna know everything about it. So I said, Ben, can we talk about your business question? But first can we just record a podcast and I can dive into what you're up to.
00:07:08 So thank you for agreeing to do that. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Okay, so the thing we're focused on is that you're combining fitness and Coworking and we'll put a link to your website and Instagram and the show notes so that people can take a look cuz for me, like visualizing it, I was like, what is happening here? So tell us your story.
00:07:28 What did you do before you did this and how did you decide to combine fitness and Coworking? Yeah, I've been in the fitness industry for a long time, for over a decade now. I'd been a personal trainer, a group fitness instructor, and then for the last six years a gym manager. And so that was where the idea kind of started to bounce around in my head cuz I was seeing,
00:07:51 and maybe you've experienced this too, is where the gym culture in particular kind of in the US is very like come in, work really hard, sweat and then leave. And I felt like some gyms are amazing with how they build their community, but others it's very like trapping and then leave. And also it feels like people can work hard in the gym and still be really unhealthy with the rest of their life as well.
00:08:16 Totally. Especially in the workplace ohs. Cool. So I was starting to think about those things and then at the same time I was reading like the Blue Zones books. I don't know if you've heard of that also. Yep, totally. Yeah, they visit What's author? I'm trying to remember. I follow him a little bit. Yeah, Dan Butner.
00:08:34 That's right. Yeah. I keep trying to, I'm like, I really wanna talk with him, but it hasn't happened yet. But I'd love to tell him that we faced a lot of concepts that, you know, he talks about in our space. So that was part of it. You know, blue Zones are places where people live longer and often they're happier.
00:08:51 One of the big takeaways from that was that the environment that they're in is what shapes their decisions, whether they think about it or not. So I thought it'd be wonderful to make an environment where healthy choices were the easiest ones and people would be happier in the space. You know, they'd form connections with their other members over a shared interest and also obviously it'd be a healthier environment for everyone who comes in the space.
00:09:16 So the gym that you managed wasn't yours, you were an employee, like a w2, an employee. Yep. Yeah. So when I joined That you percolated this idea and then you decided to like all in on your own? Yeah, well the way it worked out is, so it's kind of an an interesting story because that gym was a ninja warrior gym.
00:09:36 It was like obstacle course type of training. And so I joined them when their very first location open and now they have, I think it's five locations in Minnesota and they have another couple that are franchised all over the US And while I was there teaching, the person I met was training for the American Ninja Warrior TV show and his name was Bobby. And so we started training together and I was coaching him then I found out like his background,
00:10:03 so he owned his own wedding videography company and we just had a lot of shared interest in general. And so, and he had thought about opening a coffee shop on his own, which has vague connections with coworkers. Yeah, Ok. Yes. Ok. And so, so we ended up planning the whole thing together as right at the start of the pandemic actually as,
00:10:23 or I should say a month before that is when we were talking about it and then all of that happened and we're like, oh, maybe we'll have to shelve this idea. But then as things have played out now, maybe it's actually the best case scenario. So is he your business partner? Yep. Yeah, so we're both 50 50 owners in the company.
00:10:39 Okay, very cool. Okay, so then I want you to tell me what the facility looks like. And I have to, people listening may know I talk about my story sometimes. So I have a little bit of a, like a similar why when I started my co-working space. Have you heard me talk about it before? Maybe? But I've listened to a lot of your podcasts.
00:10:57 I know, that's why I'm like, I don't totally talk about my own story that often, but I feel, but I always hate to be repetitive, but I kind of came from Startup culture and had always wanted to do my own thing and became very passionate about kind of what you saw, like environment really impacts like how people eat and how people exercise.
00:11:17 And I also just was super passionate about like people bringing like their whole selves to work and just, you know, and if like I wanna work out during the day making that super integrated. So when I started my first space in Chicago, you're in Minneapolis, so you may not spend much time in Chicago. There's a place called the East Bank Club,
00:11:35 which is where like Michael Jordan used to work out. And it's this huge complex where you could like live your whole life, you could work out, you could get your shoes shined, you could get your dry cleaning done, you could get your nails done, you could get super healthy, they are great like cafe where you could get healthy stuff like to take away for lunch.
00:11:56 And you know, they had onsite restaurants and it was not like crazy fancy, but it was just like all inclusive. And I just was like, but they don't have a workspace. And you know, if I was brave enough I would've done something more comprehensive like that. So my first space was, our tagline was workplace and wellness and we put in like a studio space because yeah,
00:12:20 I probably just wasn't brave enough to go in all in like you did, but all the concepts that you're talking about, I wanted to have recess. I had worked it for a Startup that had recess and I was like, I wanna have recess. And I also didn't get brave enough to like make that like part of what we did. So anyway,
00:12:37 I'm super passionate about what you do. So I wanna hear, okay, so you decide to do this business and you look for space. So what did you end up with? I'm looking at like a beautiful space behind you where you're recording, so if anybody's on YouTube they can see your background. Yeah. Tell us about the facility. Yeah, we looked for over a year for a space that was gonna feel like the right fit.
00:12:58 I mean I think it's kind of a specialty type place that we were looking for, especially because too, there were a lot of just warehouse spaces that were a big open box. Yeah. But then the build out costs were just absolutely brutal to consider. Well that's the thing. So I'm a huge CrossFitter and I always, to your point, like I love the community of CrossFit,
00:13:18 but those gyms are usually ugly for just simplicity sake. Right. Like dark, no windows until you pull up the garage door. And to your point, if you wanted to add any infrastructure, like offices, like you're starting from scratch, super expensive. Yeah. That was the funny thing is initially we were looking in some neighborhoods where we felt like the neighborhood was really conducive to being a good fit,
00:13:42 but everything we were looking at was warehouse space, which sometimes that's nice because it gives you a lot of control over what you wanna do. And a lot of 'em had huge Florida ceiling windows. So we were excited about that. Some of 'em already had patios that were built out for 'em. But then when we were looking at the price of building conference rooms and office spaces we're like,
00:14:02 no small business loan we're gonna get is gonna be able to cover this and flood our cash. Yeah. So yeah, the place we ended up going to then had previously been a Coworking space. So that was, I would definitely recommend for new Coworking places, if they're looking for a location that has already had a Coworking space in it, it can be huge cost savings because It can be,
00:14:25 except maybe their business didn't work because they didn't have the right build out or location. So You have to dig into that a little bit. Also a very good point. Yeah. And we definitely brainstormed and ruminated over that for quite a while too. Okay. But yeah, having all the networking hardware in place, having all the electrical done, having conference rooms built,
00:14:45 having offices in place, that was a big asset for the space. It's wasn't, that wasn't the, the only thing that convinced us though, that this was the right space when we started really diving into the neighborhood around us and how many new high rise apartments were going up and what the demographics were in the neighborhood and, and the type of work that people were doing in the area started to feel like a really good fit because it was uptown Minneapolis,
00:15:10 if not where we had been looking. But once our realtors brought us over to this space and we did kinda a deep dive on what was happening there, we felt like it was amazing. And the space itself is very unique and cool. It's kind of fun because you know, it's technically a garden level space, which is okay. Which is a fancy way of saying it's a basement level place,
00:15:30 But do I not see light behind you? Yeah. So that's, there are almost floor ceiling windows along the entire east facing side of this. So That kind of removes the challenge with the garden. Yeah. To your point, garden would make me nervous, but yeah. And your ceilings, how tall are your ceilings? They're 12 foot ceilings. Only 12.
00:15:49 Okay. Yeah. Pretty good height. I mean we would've loved, that was actually, that was one thing that almost ruled us out of the space is we wanted taller ceilings and especially with the gym aspect built in. Yep. But it was just tall enough to make it work for more. Make it work. Cool. How many square feet is it?
00:16:05 So it's 17,000 square Feet. Ooh, wow. Okay. So I am just a little bit curious. You seem like pretty business savvy for someone who came from a gym background. How did you pick this up? I think that part of it was that my dad was always an entrepreneur growing up, but then partnering with Bobby who has owned, owned his own business for almost 15 years now.
00:16:29 Cool. I mean that was every time I would have big exciting ideas, he'd be like, these are the reasons they're not gonna work and this is how we need to fit within our budget. So there's some good, he's Like the yin to your yang. You bring the energy and like the fresh excitement. He's like, well here's how that would work out in real life.
00:16:45 Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I love it. To speak to the square footage, I mean we didn't think that, we thought this was way too big. Like we, this was not what we were planning. We were planning something that was four to 8,000 square feet at the most. Yep. You know, especially for location one. But once we started talking with the landlords,
00:17:06 we found out the situation with the space that they were excited about our idea and they were willing to work with us. Then we realized, well this is actually amazing. You know, this we can kind of make all our dreams come true. So the stuff that we thought would need to wait until location two or three, were able to bring that right into this space.
00:17:23 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is like such a challenging decision for first time space owners. So how many months in are you? So we are a little past six months now. We opened in April. So, Okay, so you're still pretty early. So how do you feel about the space size? It's amazing. We love that You're glad you went bigger,
00:17:48 you're already glad. Okay. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Especially even, I mean one thing we noticed right away is for larger events we have all this amazing space and it creates some awesome possibilities. And then also being able to have that size of event is to an extent free advertising for the space and with a tight budget, you know, as a Startup on location one.
00:18:13 Anything we can do to market to a big group of people and get them in this space, which is our biggest selling point. Cause you like you mentioned a little bit Yeah, yeah. Talking about what the space is, it can be confus for people, but as soon as they come in they're like, oh this totally makes sense. I can see how people would find value in this.
00:18:30 Yeah. Hi, this is Josh Fried CEO of Proximity. When we started proximity, we did it for one reason. We didn't like how hard it was to run our Coworking spaces. At first we tried testing different space management software on the market and look, we found that we had to use multiple software solutions. Then we spent way too much time trying to sync them all together.
00:18:51 And then we spent even more time training our staff and worse yet our members on how to use this overcomplicated solution. We ended up going circles, attempting to manage our software instead of letting software do what it's supposed to, which is help run our business. Our members were frustrated, we were frustrated, we just didn't think it should be so hard to operate a Coworking space.
00:19:13 So we built our own solution to make Coworking spaces easier to manage. All packaged up in one, easy to use platform refined by feedback from hundreds of Coworking spaces over the last five years. Proximity software is simple for operators and best of all members and it is backed by our award-winning US based customer support team. It's time to stop settling for overcomplicate software guest software that was actually purpose built for Coworking by Coworking space operators.
00:19:43 See for yourself, our team is available to chat with Everything Coworking podcast listeners and you can schedule your call today@proximity.space slash Jamie. So when I work with folks who are starting new spaces, they always same like just like probably your mindset, like let's start like with something we feel like we can chew off. But there's so many limitations to that. Like a,
00:20:06 you just don't have enough inventory to sell. It's like too small and you can't do specialty things like event space unless the whole space is like convertible. It's really hard. And then I feel like it maybe turns people off from the model a little bit because there's so little upside from a smaller space depending, you know, there's lots of different ways people approach the model,
00:20:27 but it takes some bravery to dive into 17,000 square feet on the first go. So, yep. Bravely is one word for It. Okay. So describe the space for us. You mentioned event space. How does the fitness space fit in? You know, what type of workspace do you offer? Yeah, just kinda like help us visualize. Yep.
00:20:47 So it's 17,000 square feet. It's pretty open concept. The Coworking space I was in there previously. They had a lot more walls up that had since came down. And part of that too was trying to foster the community atmosphere and the space, which literally removing walls by nature brings people together sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. But, so there's a 2000 square foot event space and that's a pretty unique area because part of that is kind of our multipurpose room,
00:21:16 which is our yoga room. But then also we call it our lounge for events because it, you know, it's a pretty open floor plan and we can bring in couches or tables or chairs based on what people need. Yep. There's a speakeasy style bar. So that's a really cool amenity. The landlords had actually built that out previously. There's a game room with ping pong and a pool table and a retro arcade machine and there's a theater that can seat up to 40 people.
00:21:41 40 people. Okay. I saw that on your website or your Instagram and I was trying to get a redone on that one. Yeah, that was stuff that the landlord had already brought into the space and when we sat initially we Were kinda, what were they gonna do with it? Like gonna run it what? Yeah, No it wasn't, it was never like a business model for them.
00:22:03 It was much more that they liked to do charity events out of the space and then they also like it as just a really cool hangout for them and their friends. So Did they write into the lease? Did they still get access if they want, You know, too well, Yes. So they, yeah they do have some access to the space as needed to,
00:22:25 but they had said that, you know, they thought that they'd maybe use it once a month or once every couple months. I think they've been in one time since we've been open. So I guess, I don't know. I'm not complaining about that. Yeah, yeah, no complaints here. But, so the rest of the space then, so there's another,
00:22:43 you know, 15,000 square feet that's split between the Coworking area and the fitness area. The, the fitness area itself is about, there's 4,000 square feet of dedicated space and then there's another probably 2000 square feet that comes in and actually comes in between a lot of the Coworking seating. I, yeah, I could see that from the photos. Yeah. Which is,
00:23:06 it's something that people are always curious about, but my reasoning for wanting to do it and I always wanted to do it in whatever space it was, is because having that visual, you know, always being able to see, oh it's right there whenever I want, I can get up, I can stretch out, I can go hang on a box,
00:23:23 Some ring muscle up Ipo. I don't think a lot of people are hopping outta their desk and doing ring muscle up. Okay. But do have a section with some rings hanging pretty high. Right. That's what I was like, oh my god, I can't even imagine. Yeah. So we wanted that visual there for people. But then there is a more dedicated fitness area as well.
00:23:44 But yeah, a lot of it's pretty, pretty open. I mean we do have different doors that we can close off to segment the space more. The gym has great sound privacy. There's a full garage door that we can close on it too. Cause that was always a consideration. You know, I think one of the first questions people ask is if someone's dropping weights,
00:24:00 you know, 50 feet away from me, how am I supposed to be on a Zoom call? Yeah, exactly. That was always my thing about the, my CrossFit gym closed during Covid like forever. Cuz they just, it just was, I don't know, they had too much space I think. Really. And I always thought like oh how can we write like dual purpose this thing but a no Windows B loud music all the time with weights dropping all the time,
00:24:24 not gonna happen. Yeah, we definitely have some rules for our members too, you know, during the regular nine to five work hours to be careful about how they're chopping way. It's if they're gonna listen to music, just have it on their own headphones. Yeah, yeah. And all that sort of thing where we're being mindful of the people that are working.
00:24:41 But it does have great sound privacy and you know, we fully did the foam acoustic panels on the ceiling. That made a huge difference. I think probably over time we'll add even more of those to the Coworking area since it's such a big open space. But yeah, it's 17,000 square feet scary amount, but I think we're making use of it well and now we just need to fill it up with members.
00:25:04 Okay, so the members, can I join only the gym? Yes. Yeah. I'm looking at your website now. So I can do gym or there then there are workspace options that include the gym. Yep. Yeah, so all the workspace options include all the gym amenities. So they have access 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM and then there's free fitness and yoga classes for any member or guest every day.
00:25:28 But yeah, it's, you know, when we opened we didn't know what the kind of, how the scales were gonna tip with more gym only members or more Coworking. But at this point, you know, a little more than six months in, it's probably over 90% Coworking interesting. And 10% or less that are just fitness only. And I think a big part of that is being a part of the community.
00:25:50 You know, people feel much more part of it when they're in the Coworking space as well. So do the Coworking people cuz your membership prices, if I was coaching you, I would tell you to raise them right away because it looks to me like it's Coworking with a free gym membership basically. Is that like, or am I missing Cuz it, it's a beautiful space.
00:26:13 It's not like you're a 24-hour fitness, you know? Yeah. It's gorgeous. So do the people who co-work also use the fitness facilities or like what's the percentage there? They do. I, I wish they used it more. More. Yeah. Like you know, some members that was the reason why they joined our space is cuz they were looking for both a workspace and the gym.
00:26:36 And every time we give someone like that a tour, it's like the easiest sell ever. You know, they can just see the space and they're like of course this makes sense for me me. But there is definitely, I would say at least a third of the members don't use at all almost any of the fitness amenities, which I'm always surprised about cuz even just,
00:26:53 you know, stretching out a little bit feels so good at some point during the day whether, you know, you don't need to change clothes or sweat or anything. So. Totally. So I mean I think, I bet over time you'll probably play with this a little bit because behavior's really hard to change, right? Even if it's sitting in front of you,
00:27:11 you know, it's like you just get into this heads down. I even like block out time on my calendar, like walk the dog and then I don't, I just sit here on my zoom call. So, and I'm like maybe one of the fittest people I know you're probably, you know, fitter than I am, but in terms of like very committed to like health and fitness.
00:27:31 So what are some of the like nudges, have you read that book by the way? I think it's Richard Thaler Nut. I think it's him. I'll have to look it up. This would be a good book for you if you haven't read it. So like recess, what are the other things that you do to kind of give people opportunities? Yeah.
00:27:48 During the day like to work it into the, like the culture. My book of choice has always been atomic habits. Have you read that one before? Yes. Yeah. So that's thinking of all the different cues, the way that you can plan into your day so that way it happens easily instead of being a friction point and you're like, oh man,
00:28:06 now I have to get up and work out. Are you kidding me? I was slumped into my chair deep in my work. Yeah. I mean so every day of the work week we have a noon class and part of that too is making sure that class is really approachable for people where it doesn't feel like a big transition. So it's only a 20 to 30 minute class,
00:28:25 whether it's our recess or our yoga classes. And that way, you know, it's like I don't love yoga myself even though my wife has been a yoga teacher for a long time. Oh that's funny. And the only way I can tolerate it is if it is a shorter class. Cause otherwise I start to get bored in it. But I think real,
00:28:40 I Know an hour of like being alone with my thoughts. No thank you. Yeah, so I think just like the mentality of, you know, I'm just getting up for 20 minutes to stretch out and make my body feel better and make myself more alert, improve my mental health. That was the selling points for having those noon classes and they're the most popular classes now,
00:29:00 which is funny cuz yeah, previously we had a lot before work and some after work and after work still does fine. I realized though before work for a lot of entrepreneurs, like they're actually not that interested in getting up at 7:00 AM if they don't have to. Huh. So yeah, noon hour seems like a great fit I think too. I mean there's a lot of standing desk options in the space.
00:29:23 There's treadmill desks Yep. That people really like. Or I should say there's treadmills and then I made some nice adapters to go on them so people can be on meetings or be on their laptops. Yeah, exactly. And then there's a really cool private courtyard space that we have have too, that's all green space. I think all of that is, you know,
00:29:45 really easy options for people to just take care of themselves better during the day. Wait, have you read Daniel Pink's book When I don't know anything about that. I'm gonna send you the link to it because it'll give you the evidence for all the things that you are already doing. Because he talks a lot about even short breaks and even looking at pictures of green things or like huge productivity drivers.
00:30:09 So that courtyard space and even right, like 20 minutes of a break can really set you up for success and people just like don't do it. Yeah. On their own. So I mean I just Yeah, I love that. So You, you just reminded me of something really kinda obvious with our space too is the whole reason we named it The Wilderness was because we wanted to fill it up with plants and you know,
00:30:34 and a lot of the desks are live edge tables where kind of looks like you're more in a wilderness setting and then the Florida ceiling windows we had to have so as much natural light as possible. So when you're actually in the space it, well I wouldn't say that it feels like you're outside, but we're trying to do as we can in an indoor space.
00:30:53 Especially where there's Minnesota winters for some people would say it's like nine months outta the year. Right. Totally. Okay. So how do you handle like the food aspect? You know, you talked about like people work out and then the rest of the day maybe they don't make good, you know, food choices or they just sit at their desk and kind of,
00:31:12 you know, It is a challenge for sure and food is such a personal thing to people that we always wanna be really careful with how we're recommending people eat or don't eat. So the snacks we try to offer and the coffee and tea and sparkling water, we try to make it be healthy and kind of low impact in their life. And then also we have a healthy vending machine installed.
00:31:38 I saw that on your Instagram. I was curious about that. Is that a local company? Yeah, Sure. Okay. It was really cool. This is actually their first one that they put in the space and they're kind of targeting Coworking spaces specifically, which I thought was an interesting concept too. But yeah, check 'em out. Nash Tatiana's the owner,
00:31:54 she's amazing. She tries to source all of her products from bipo owners, whether it's in the Twin Cities community or throughout the US But yeah, so that's a great option for people too. And then, I mean we try to make good recommendations and people are like, hey, where should we go get food today? But at the end of the day it's their choice what they're gonna do.
00:32:16 But we just try to give them healthy options that are as accessible as possible. I think one of the things I found as an owner was, well Coworking culture I would say is not that healthy. Lots Of, I agree, lots Of carbs, lots of like, let's get everybody donuts on Friday. We had a base upstairs from us that was more of an executive suite and they had the big,
00:32:39 big jar of candy on the front desk. Which drives me nuts because it's really hard to walk by that, you know? And like it adds up and you know, the free snacks are always like processed food basically. It is hard to avoid that. And also from a budget perspective, it's like when you're doing a member event, you know, bringing in $14 salads for everybody is really hard.
00:33:02 And I always struggled with like pizza's cheap and it's not a healthy option. I mean in balance, right? Of course I eat pizza, I ate some of my daughter's Halloween candy this morning. Like I, I'm not saying I'm like totally crazy but trying to really create that holistic culture, like it's hard to get a sort of pick some values and and stick to them a little bit while to your point like finding some middle ground.
00:33:27 I know the first couple times members brought in treats to share with people. I was Like, do what do I do with this? I know. Do I let them do I not? I can remember like somebody brought in like a cake early on, like a full on cake and I was like oh my god. Contraband. Yeah, I mean I think overall it's good for community building and again it's not like having a treat now and then is a bad thing.
00:33:50 It's good to have moderation, especially If you're, you know, getting active during the day and yeah. Yep. I've come to terms both it, I think it's a good thing overall. Yeah. Super interesting. Okay, so back to kind of the mix of your space. I get very anxious when people have so much open space. So how many offices do you have?
00:34:10 Like private offices that people can rent? So we have 10 team offices. I don't call 'em private because they do still have a wall that's not closed off. Okay. Which Is a challenge too. And we've gone back and forth on whether it's worth putting in the money to close all those off. Which I still don't think we have definitive answer in place for that,
00:34:29 but right now it's working Alright. But yeah, then there's another about 15 dedicated desks. Yep. And all the rest is open desk seating. So we've definitely leaned heavily into the open desk seating. Interesting thing is all the dedicated desks are full so we're adding more now That is super interesting because I will tell you like that is so market specific and maybe specific to like the kind of people you attract,
00:34:57 it's a hard one to know like how far to lean into those, do they sell, do they not sell? So interesting. Hey, I just wanted to jump in really quickly before we continue with our discussion. If you're working on opening a Coworking space, I wanna invite you to join me for my free masterclass. Three behind the Scenes Secrets to Opening a Coworking Space.
00:35:20 If you're working on opening a Coworking space. I wanna share the three decisions that I've seen successful operators make when they're creating their Coworking business. The masterclass is totally free, it's about an hour and includes some q and a. If you'd like to join me you can register at Everything Coworking dot com slash masterclass. If you already have a Coworking space, I wanna make sure you know about Community Manager University Community Manager University is a training and development platform for community managers and it can be for owner operators.
00:35:53 It has content training resources, templates from day one to general manager. The platform includes many courses that cover the major buckets of the Community Manager role from community management operations, sales and marketing, finance and leadership. The content is laid out in a graduated learning path so the Community Manager can identify what content is most relevant to them depending on their experience and kind of jump in from there.
00:36:23 We provide a live brand new training every single month for the Community Manager group. We also host a live q and a call every single month so that the community managers can work through any challenges that they're having or opportunities get ideas from other community managers, build their own peer network. We also have a private Slack group for the group, so if you're interested in learning more you can go to Everything Coworking dot com slash Community Manager.
00:36:52 Yeah, I wonder if it follows kind of the same trend that I've seen with some other places where the, you know, the micro office or having really like your own little dedicated space is very valuable to people. Cause I feel like if it trends that way, we'll keep leaning into that more. Yeah. Although the micro office is really a totally different product cuz you have sound privacy where dedicated.
00:37:14 Yeah, I mean the dedicated desk. Although possibly what you're seeing is that because you don't have micro offices, people are like, well okay let me make this work. Yeah, that's, that was what I was thinking but maybe I just don't have big enough sample size yet either. Yeah, Totally. How big are your team offices? How many people do they see?
00:37:34 So it's two to six people. It's kind of interesting too because the office is, are on a, one wall is on a huge track system for each of the offices so it can all get pushed to the size that people need. So I suppose we could have like a 15 person office if that was, if there's a need for that. Got it.
00:37:52 That's an interesting system. How so? But there's also not full sound privacy in that system. Got it. Okay. But it's really flexible and it creates kind of that visual privacy. Yep, for sure. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, we'll have to check in in like a year and see if you're gonna build more walls. Yep. That would be a good question to Add.
00:38:12 Okay. But let's talk about, I'm curious also about monetizing the event space because also it's hard I think traditionally to recommend that people dedicate some of their space to event space because if you can't monetize it then you're in trouble. But post covid sort of the meeting, you know, gathering people with a lot of event space are actually doing really well. So it,
00:38:36 it's like there's a risk there but then there could be a lot of upside. You're only six months in, six months is like baby stage. Yep. So yeah, totally. You know, so we won't hold you to, it's still very early, you're just really like getting started and opening. But yeah, what are you seeing so far? I mean your event spaces,
00:38:53 if anybody wants, I'll we'll put your website online. It's The Wilderness mn.com but the event space is very cool and I mean there are three different, to your point like sort of the movie the bar. So yeah, how are those getting used or how do you think that will start to trend and will it be a significant revenue source? Yeah, our business plan initially only intended on doing kind of internal member events.
00:39:18 And so we hadn't, we hadn't been planning on event rental as part of our business model, but with this specific space we were like, well I mean it's absolutely perfectly set up for it can be totally closed off or we could have events at any time and not have it be a disruption to members. So it was an easy choice to move into that.
00:39:36 And it's funny though because I didn't know anything about event rentals or how to, it's A totally different business. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so it started off really slow for us and now it is picking up big time. It's a huge driver for us. I think we priced ourselves right kind of at the bottom of the market for event rentals.
00:39:55 But our space is so unique and versatile that people are really attracted to it. Yeah. So yeah, now we're doing amazing. Now it's, gosh, at the start we would get one event rental a month and now there's multiple every week and it's a huge revenue driver. Yep. Yeah. Which is, yeah, super interesting And probably compensates for your lack of private space to some extent.
00:40:20 Cause private space is usually what sells really fast. Right. And brings in the cash flow. Yeah. And that's usually why I tell people you gotta, you know, you gotta have private space because otherwise how you're gonna pay your rent on 17,000 square feet. So interesting. So is there event rental that incorporates the fitness aspect or is it Okay? Yep.
00:40:40 Yeah, so on weekends, as long as we're giving our members enough forewarning, we do rent out the entire space. And we've had a number of events where they're really excited about incorporating the fitness part of the space. I mean I feel, I feel like every like third event rental, they're asking if we offer any type of guided class experience with it.
00:41:01 Yeah, exactly. Which a lot of times ends up with me doing it. Right. Only I could delegate that. Yeah. For real. But yeah, I think, I mean people are attracted to that too. A good example is maybe about a month ago now, we had a chiropractic consulting company reach out to us and so they wanted to bring in 40 chiropractors from all over the us.
00:41:26 Part of their kind of workshop that they were doing was having multiple workouts each day. And so they were really excited about being able to come into our space and do their breakout sessions. But then also There's like nowhere else they can do Class. Yeah, I know. I thought about that in, I'm like man, this could not be a better location for what wanted And you have to raise your prices because when people see your,
00:41:46 your event, it's like, you know, it's not like, man, let me think about it. It's like, oh my god, that's the place for me. And when you get that reaction you can charge more for it. That's probably true. I don't The don't be bottom of the market anymore. Work on, are you working on, do you market events now or people,
00:42:03 how are people finding you? So just in the last couple months we have started marketing it more heavily with the intent of, you know, with the holiday season there's gonna be a bigger TRIBE for it, whether it's individual or corporate type events. And we've seen the growth with that. So we're pretty happy that we're putting more time and effort into that part of the business.
00:42:26 Are you running ads or kind of doing organic marketing? Anything and everything that we can afford? Yeah, my, my wife is a marketing consultant so And a yoga teacher. Perfect combination. Does she teach classes at the, at the space? She Does. Okay. Yeah, it's funny cuz she actually hadn't for a couple years with Covid besides like the occasional virtual class.
00:42:48 I think this has been a really lowkey, you know, low pressure way to do it where the classes are shorter and it's a fun group of people that she gets to see on a regular basis. Yeah. Okay. Was she, what did she think when you said I'm gonna sign a lease for 17,000 square feet? Well she knows that I'm generally a very risk averse person.
00:43:05 So if I was serious about this, she knew that I really did my homework in the situation. So I think she felt pretty comfortable. Like she was probably more comfortable with it than I was actually. Okay. Yeah, I remember my husband when we, when I was getting ready to sign my lease and mine came with a personal guarantee. He was like,
00:43:24 so if this doesn't work, do we live there? Like what do we do? Yeah, we had that conversation too cause I mean we have a personal guarantee as well. You do. Okay. That was stressful to me. It was stressful to Bobby, our coer. But I mean we've come to terms with it and it just means we have to work that much harder.
00:43:43 Yeah. Yeah. It was super, I think that was the thing that gave my husband like real pause because that's pretty legit. Although interestingly, I had a conversation with a group in Texas yesterday and their attorneys and they said the personal guarantee is not very enforceable in Texas. Like you can't really take someone's house. You can take their boats and extra cars but it's very hard to take someone's home.
00:44:09 So I thought that was interesting. I I did not have that feeling. I'll Just tell people that Jamie told me that if the scenario ever comes In only in Texas. I mean that's why I always, that's like my motto only in Texas. Yeah. Not in the Midwest where I think things maybe are a little more, who knows. But anyway,
00:44:29 but very state specific and that was interesting, you know, kind of to hear so six months in what's going well and what is like kind of a surprise. Yeah I mean I think we've touched on some of it. So one thing that man I would really love your advice on is our offices and you know, maybe that I'm sure it is in part due to them not being fully privatized,
00:44:53 we've only sold half of them. Yeah. And so that would be a big revenue booster to be able to start filling that up more significantly. The dedicated desks have been a huge success. Yeah. You know, we're adding more now so we're super excited about that. I think one thing that we're always trying to get better at is our community building.
00:45:13 And that's been a really exciting to see is, and I think too it helps where it's a little bit of a niche Coworking business even though I do think Like, like-minded people are kind of drawn together already. Yeah. It's fun too because it's people who are maybe like a little bit weird in the sense that they're not afraid to, or part of it is a culture we try to build is where we don't want people to be nervous about like squatting in front of their laptop.
00:45:40 Like, you know, like walking around barefoot. You know, be like being comfortable nurturing themselves. Like doing whatever they need to to have good mental and physical health in the space and not be judgemental about it. Yep. Some people when they come in they like right away they know like, oh this, these are my people. Like this is gonna be the perfect fit for me and I don't have to say anything.
00:46:00 And it's funny cause it's Take my money, They give me the tour, they're like still coming out, all the reasons why it's good and I'm always like, oh can I have you give the tour to people? This is amazing. That's so funny. I mean I, I love that about niche spaces cuz I do think that is, I mean I look at even just looking at your photos,
00:46:18 I just want to sit at one of those desks with the rings above them and the, and go to recess And that would be, I don't even know if I'd need to tour. I would just sign up online and come and start working and the plants, you know, that I can see in the photos and all of that. So yeah. So offices,
00:46:35 I mean I think the reality is private spaces tend to fill up fast because people need private space. So you are selling to people who, you know, don't actually require workspace outside of home probably unless it's because they have, you know, kids and dogs and distractions. But like their business itself doesn't require an office. So it's discretionary income by nature,
00:47:01 which is a harder sell. Yep. You Pretty Much shut the nail on the head with. Exactly. And so, I mean so I love that you're unique and compelling. Cause I think that is helping you. If you were just a generic space with 17,000 feet and 10 offices, you would not make it. That's probably why that space didn't make it by the way.
00:47:23 That's my Guess. There's extenuating circumstances of that. Got it. But I do, I do agree that if we weren't filling a specific need, I mean if we weren't, we just wouldn't have opened the space this large either because Exactly. You, yes. You had a purpose, you had a reason for doing it the way you're doing it. Yeah.
00:47:39 Yeah. And I think it may be like your dedicated desk people also think they need privacy and that's a cultural thing you can manage too. We had, I talk about her all the time, Sarah Traverse from Work Bar was on the Flex Uncensored podcast and they have neighborhoods where you can talk loudly and neighborhoods where you're focusing and you have enough space that you probably could do that too,
00:48:01 you know? But if you have six people and they're part of a, you know, for a team space and they're part of a company, it just probably is a perception that they think they need walls and ceilings and Yeah. So some of it's not reality but it's like their perception, you know? And and who buys those? Some of those would be enterprise people.
00:48:20 You know, if Target has a special project team that they wanna put in your space, they want walls. Yeah. I mean Full walls and full soundproofing. You're totally right because we don't have very many companies, like larger than a couple people working in the space. And that's something that we've struggled with because we know, you know, if one company of 10 people joins,
00:48:41 you know, compare that to 10 individual people joining, it's like, it's Like the cashflow injection is immediate and it compounds right over. Yep. The year. So it's a big deal. And I would think, I mean I know even, I mean I had like a fraction of what you have. Cause I just had the studio and we did some classes in the morning,
00:48:59 we actually did meditation classes. They were also only 10 or 20 minutes and people loved those. Surprisingly, this was a very long time ago. But people were felt good if they had employees. You know, that was a huge benefit to them that there was like fitness, you know, that was a, he a healthy work environment. So I would think that would be very sellable.
00:49:19 And Minneapolis is so such a great Coworking market because there's a lot of big companies that have budgets for space and meetings and all of those things. So I would guess that'd be a big and that need to do Right gatherings and, and have budgets for that stuff. So yeah, you might at some point just start squiring away money to put what put,
00:49:39 you know, fully enclos those spaces. Yeah, I mean right now the cell that we try to offer for companies is that their productivity is gonna increase because their mental and physical health is being nurtured when they're in the space. But that's always like a more like lofty of a vision. Yeah, it's aspirational. Which I love. I mean I love the aspirational cell honestly.
00:50:02 I mean I think some of Coworking is practical and some of it it is aspirational, right? Like I want to be in a place where I'm inspired and you know, I run into interesting people. Like all of that's sort of this, it's this aspirational piece. And then some people are like, yeah I just need a place where I can take phone calls and no one hears me.
00:50:20 So that's the practical side of things, which is, you know, tricky but you have time and how long is your lease? So we have a two year lease and then, but we already have built into the lease that we can extend it an additional three years and then plus another five years on top of that if we you've choose to. Yeah.
00:50:39 Okay. Yeah. Do you have to match, you have to adjust to market rent rates at each of those like trigger points? We do. So that'll be a fun, it was funny, I was telling people that like, ah, we get along so great with our landlords and like we really feel like they understand our vision and they're willing to work with us,
00:50:58 but we'll see how good a friends we are when that comes. When you have to negotiate. Yeah, I mean it could be go well or not depending on how commercial real estate is doing. Yeah. You might get lucky cuz usually that's a really tricky, you should have just lock in, but you might be okay because commercial real estate is probably still gonna be on the,
00:51:22 you know, occupancy will be declining. I suspect in two years you might be okay. Yeah. And also, I mean we wanted a shorter lease term for this first two because to an extent it was an unproven business model and we wanted to manage that risk aspect as best we could. So we kind of thought it was the best case scenario where we we're locked in for two and then we have optional extension.
00:51:43 You have the Yes. Yeah. I will say to just for anybody listening who may not line up with those is if you put a lot of money into a build out, like you can't pay it off in two years. So if you needed to get out, not only like you just lose all the money that you put in, you might have been in a different position because you didn't do a lot of build out,
00:52:06 which most people don't. You know, you would be out furniture and fixtures and, and that stuff, which theoretically you could sell, not for you know much, but some if you had to get out. But for most people, if you're gonna take 17,000 feet and you're putting in, you know, you're doing a build out, then you gotta have a 10 year lease.
00:52:24 And the problem with like marketing to market is if you're in a gentrifying neighborhood, your rent could go up significantly enough to like not make the model work anymore. I had that in my Chicago space. I was in the West Loop. I had renewals that were not based on market rent, just one. I had one like kind of check in in the middle of 10 years because Google put their headquarter,
00:52:49 their Chicago office down the street and the whole neighborhood just turned. So market rent went through the roof and it, and I don't think my model would've worked if I had to mark to market. So just for people listening, yours is different cuz you didn't do a significant buildout. So that works. Yeah, those are great points though for sure. Yeah,
00:53:09 I, yeah, I just always like for people listening who are like two year lease, I love it. Cause when people start spaces, they're just trying to reduce risk. So they want small space and short lease, but actually for a business to work, those are two things you don't actually want. Okay. So what is your six months in?
00:53:25 I'm guessing you're doing a lot of things, but so you have a part, you mentioned at the beginning part-time, Community, Manager, you run some classes, you Yeah. What is, yeah, who's on site? What does it look like? So I'm on site feels like most days of the week all time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For some part of the day I'm almost always checking in and doing this or that and you know,
00:53:49 changing light bulbs, making sure toilets are working, how they need to, you know, cleaning up this, like tidying up the space constantly. But I think, I mean we've reached a pretty good balance with maybe excluding me like what our other employees. And you know what, our owner, Bobby does Bobby's in there one day a week on site.
00:54:10 And then he is doing a lot of the financials and backend stuff on his own time at home. And our Community, Manager Hannah is in there three to four days a week and she's amazing. So she actually, part of her background is in event planning, so that's been such a huge asset. Yeah. And she's just super organized. So it's just like a huge blessing to have in here.
00:54:30 And then having my wife have a background, you know, in marketing and also being a very organized, proactive person. Like all of these things are shoring up the weaknesses I have. So that all plays together really well. The tricky thing, in fact, probably our biggest friction point is that since a lot of us do a lot of things in the space,
00:54:53 it'll often be like, oh, I thought you were in charge of this. Like, I wanna make this decision on this and you disagree with me. Well who's the one who's in charge of this? Which part of that we manage by doing that traction style of business management. And that does help a lot. And, but there's definitely been some tough conversations about whose role it is to do this or that.
00:55:16 Yeah. So growing pains, right. Do you have an operating agreement between you and your business partner? Like specifies like Yeah, but I'll sometimes that that's more like what happens if we break up. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. And not necessarily who gets to pick the coffee or who gets to decide what classes we run or how much we charge for things or,
00:55:37 yeah. I would actually say, you know, him and I, we have a pretty clearly defined work relationship and most of the friction does not between him and I, it's a lot of times where, you know, with our Community Manager with my wife and there's a lot of different roles happening. And so sometimes, you know, if someone's not on the payroll for something and then they're trying to decide like who needs to be responsible for this,
00:56:02 that, you know, I mean there's yeah. Lots of fun conversations to have to figure that all Out. No, right. You're figuring it all out. So is the goal to do more locations? What's the big picture? Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a number of markets that we've already identified would be well suited for what we have.
00:56:20 Berlingame California please. California real estate sounds so intimidating to get, It's so intimidating. I know. But maybe a management agreement I think, you know, who Knows. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Although I'll start looking for location for you. Please do. Yeah, I think that it's tricky because again, it's not a super proven model.
00:56:44 We feel like though it, in some ways it's such an obvious concept. Yeah. I mean a co a workspace that is catering to people's mental and physical health seems like something that should have been in place right from the beginning of Coworking. So to push for it now is great because there's less education for the general public of what Coworking actually means. True.
00:57:04 Oh my gosh, I know when I started, what did my husband say? Oh, I think you wanted me to leave the wellness part out. I think It's too understand You need to talk about workspace, it's too much to tell people all the things and what you're, and I was like, gotta think about that. I Mean, it's 20.
00:57:22 I kind of agree with that though because that's like a big battle that we, and it's part of it too is that our fitness is also like a little alternative. Okay. It's because, I mean, so you could walk in and do a full CrossFit workout and be so happy with, with the space and all the offerings there, but also the classes that we teach,
00:57:42 you know, recess is nontraditional. It's not like sweat a lot and it's more like treat your body with respect. I Can see your Videos, but I feel like that's really approachable for a bigger, a broader population. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always funny with people who are explaining, you know what we do and they're not gym people and we're like,
00:58:02 actually the space is for the non gym people. This is for people who don't wanna go into a regular gym and deal with that culture. This is much more accepting and inclusive of anyone coming, you know, from any type of fitness or lack of fitness background and people who have never prioritized their health before. Yep. I love that. Yeah, it's like a cultural shift though,
00:58:25 so, right. We're still, I, I totally agree with you. It makes a hundred percent sense and I think it's a different, the people who I was in for the GWA conference was in Dallas next to the Cowboy Stadium and Jerry Jones put in, I think it's called Cowboy Fit. And I thought it was gonna be more of like the CrossFit style.
00:58:46 It's really like a gym, you know? And I hadn't been in like a gym in so long and I was like, what do all these people like do? Because you have to go in and like, you have to know what you're gonna do. It's very independent. Like you have to have a plan. Most people have no idea like how to plan,
00:59:04 I don't even know. I follow programming even when I work out on my own. Like I have a thing that says what I do every day, an app, you know, it's like the app with the workout in it. So, but so that it's like a very specific person that goes to a gym and like makes up their own stuff. Right.
00:59:21 So I think most people probably want what you, what you're doing, But you're also touching on a bigger conversation too. I'm sure we could talk a long time about that as well. Cause I have some, you know, after being in the fitness industry for a long time, some pretty well formed justified opinions about the things that are going well and not well for the general public with how they can take care of themselves.
00:59:42 Yeah. So, I mean that's what influenced us opening this type of space. You know, that was Part of it. Like make a dent in that big challenge. Yeah, Yeah, for sure. Totally. Okay, well that's it for now. We have to check in with you in like, maybe like a year. We'll check in, see like,
01:00:00 you know, how things are going, you know, what's changed if we can franchise or you know, what the expansion model's gonna look like. What do you think? Will they, will you do your own locations or any sense of what the, what the expansion model will look like? Yeah, I mean it's tricky. Like I said, the gym I had worked at previously,
01:00:17 they did go into a franchising model and I see a lot of benefits to that. But also we like to control the narrative a little bit more. Yeah. You know, maybe, so it might not be the best idea. And also we just like a slow growth strategy in general. So we'll see though. We have to prove this model first.
01:00:35 We're, we're just basically, We're only six months in. Totally. Yeah. We're still learning to walk. We'll give you some time. Okay. Thank you for sharing your story and your insights. Super interesting. I'm gonna put your website and your Instagram and we'll put a link to the Blue Zones stuff in there as well. People are curious about that.
01:00:55 And we look forward to checking in again and seeing how things are going. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I've listened to so many episodes that it's really been a pleasure talking with you today. Awesome. Thanks Ben. Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you like what you heard, tell a friend, hit that subscribe button and leave us a rating and review.
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