216. Justin and Kelly, Spouses and Owners of FLOCC Studio, on Starting a Niche Coworking Space and Managing Multiple Businesses

Resources Mentioned in this Podcast:

• Membership page on the FLOCC website

• FLOCC Studio Website

• The Photo School

• Justin on the Web

• Kelly on the Web

• FLOCC on Instagram @floccstudio

• Justin on Instagram @justinclemons

• Kelly on Instagram @kellyclemonsstudio

• That Photo School on Instagram @thatphotoschool

Everything Coworking Featured Resources:

• Community Manager University

• Masterclass: 3 Behind-the-Scenes Secrets to Opening a Coworking Space

• Creative Coworking Partnerships: How to negotiate and structure management agreements from the landlord and operator perspective

TRANSCRIPTION

216. Justin and Kelly, Spouses and Owners of FLOCC Studio, on Starting a Niche Coworking Space and Managing Multiple Businesses

00:00:01 Welcome to the everything co-working podcast, where you learn what you need to know about how the world wants to work. And now your host coworking space owner and trend expert, Jamie Russo, Hey, before we dive in, I want to share with you an upcoming cohort for our management agreements course, which we call creative coworking partnerships. If you're a landlord or a co-working space operator,

00:00:40 looking to get into a creative partnership structure, to put a coworking space in a building that has the right upside for both parties, while being confident that you've covered all the who does what and what ifs before you commit, then, you know, you need to become an expert on the co-working management agreement. I've partnered with management agreement, expert Mike Abrams,

00:01:07 to develop a course that covers structuring and negotiating management agreements and other creative partnerships from a to Z. If you're a coworking space operator, looking to expand through a creative deal structure or a landlord looking to offer flexible workspace in your building, and you want to understand management agreements from both a strategic perspective and a tactical perspective, we designed this course for you.

00:01:34 We have run this course twice. Now with cohorts. We like to launch it in cohorts because we think it's really helpful to do the Q and A's with other operators in landlords that are working through deals real time. So you can access the course at other times of the year, but the next cohort will start on September 13th. So if you'd like to jump in,

00:01:59 you can get all of the details at everything. coworking.com forward slash management agreements. The course is online. So you can access the modules at your own pace, but we run Q and a calls every other week so that you can process what you've learned and get access to Mike and myself to ask questions. And do you break out to the other folks in the group and kind of learn from others.

00:02:25 You also get access to all the Q and a call recordings that we've done either on video or on private podcast, if you'd like to listen to on the go. So if you have any questions, you can find all the details@everythingcoworking.com forward slash management agreements. Welcome to the everything coworking podcast. This is your host, Jamie Rousseau. Thank you for joining me today.

00:02:49 I have two guests again today, Justin and Kelly Clemens. They own a flux studio, which is a co-working space for artists and creatives in Oak cliff neighborhood in Dallas, Texas. So I got to know both of them. Justin actually went through a program that I ran with Jessica Bommarito, who's been on the podcast. We ran kind of a special program cohort for folks that were going through Stu McLaren's TRIBE membership program.

00:03:18 And Justin already owned a coworking space with Kelly and was starting a digital membership, which she shares in the, on the podcast. And then they enrolled their community manager, Kelly McNutt into our community manager university. So I've gotten to know them and their community manager Kelly through that. So they have a really interesting story. They started a space, very committed to the niche of creating a space for artists and other creatives.

00:03:47 And they've stayed strong in that commitment to that specific community, which I think will be really interesting to some of you working on a niche now, or thinking about starting a niche they're husband and wife team, which of course has its own dynamic and they manage a number of different businesses. So they talk about that experience and share some really great insights about how they manage it and running a niche space.

00:04:10 One super interesting thing that they have done really successfully is run an intern program and they have seven to 10 interns at any given time. I learned that through Kelly, who is in the community manager program. And everybody's always curious about the details. So this year a little bit about how that works and how they manage their interns and what they get out of the experience.

00:04:31 So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. Welcome. So I have two guests with me today, husband and wife, team, Justin and Kelly Clemens. They are owners of flock studio, which is a coworking space for creatives in a neighborhood in Dallas, Texas. Justin is also the founder owner of an online lighting school for photographers. I'll let Justin give it a better description,

00:04:58 but you can see the sign and his background it's called that photo school. And that's actually how I met Justin and Kelly, just Jess Bommarito. And I ran a cohort of TRIBE for folks that were looking to start memberships and Justin appeared and ran a coworking space, but wanted to start a membership that was kind of related, but not totally related. So we got connected in that way.

00:05:24 And I reached out recently because I wanted the updates and I said, let's do a podcast. So I'm excited to share your story, to learn more about your story and talk about your coworking space and, and that photo school. So thank you for joining me today. Thanks so much. Okay. So I'm second guessing the neighborhood. Are you in Oak cliff?

00:05:48 Yes. Yes. It's, it's kind of the creative part of Dallas. It's where a lot of artists and stuff live over in Oak cliff. It's the coolest part of Dallas for sure. Of course it is. Well, so it's a perfect segue to tell us your coworking story. What, you know, when did you look at each other and say,

00:06:07 we need to open a coworking space and we're going to do it in Oak cliff, Share the moment Kelly, you want to start off? You want me to, you can go ahead. So I was in a studio space with four other photographers and that was awesome. I was there for probably eight years and then a friend of a friend said they were looking at this space as warehouse space and wanted to see if I might want to be a part.

00:06:40 And so we came and looked at it. It was just this nasty shell of a building. Everything was black, it was just super gross. And it was a lot bigger than I thought it's actually 6,500 square feet. And so initially we were thinking maybe having four or five artists in there, but then we started thinking about it that I think financially five artists covering this huge kind of lease of a building like this might not work.

00:07:11 And then I think it was actually Kelly. We went to brunch after that and she brought up what if we had a lot more artists and there's, you know, we start thinking about coworking space or space for creatives, maybe a collective of artists or something. And that kind of started us down that road. Is that, what do you remember, Kelly,

00:07:35 Justin wasn't here. That was what almost four years ago. Yeah. We'd Been open in February. It will be four years. And it took us about, I'd say five months to get it all built out, Which is a small miracle in coworking terms. That's amazing. So that's why that's kind of a big part of the story. Jamie is.

00:08:03 So we're, we partnered with this coworking space and she was an interior designer and would like also, I don't know a builder, but she, we never would have jumped into a project like this. We're kind of more and she like laid it all out. She was in charge of all of the construction had crews already. We probably got it for Totally.

00:08:30 Yeah. Yeah. And which was awesome because we probably paid half as much as what it normally would cost, but with her deals and stuff was a huge, huge help. And you leased the space. We, we do. Yup. Yup. And we ended up third at the beginning of COVID actually buying our partners out. So Kelly and I own and run it A hundred percent.

00:08:53 The two of you now. Okay. So I love, I don't get to interview very many niche spaces like your space, you go to your website and it's so clear, like I belong there or not, which I loved. So you knew kind of from the beginning because you're both artists in a sense that that's who you were going to serve. Can you,

00:09:16 I mean, can you just talk about like some of the things you thought through about, you know, how do we create this space that's specifically built for the community we want to serve and then how did you start attracting them? Yeah, Well, I'd say in the beginning we really had some identity crisis in that we really wouldn't use the word coworking.

00:09:38 We were artist studios, you know, artists, studios, and we are, but amongst the transition, and especially since we've done the buyout, we've been a lot more comfortable with using the word coworking because it is a version of coworking and we don't have as many, we do have, you know, I'm a sculptor. I actually said, I'm a separate studio because I have kilns and I work with porcelain and the dust is just,

00:10:10 can't come and walk, but we have some of the light painters and the sculptors in the, but we have also a lot of photographers, videographers designers, you know, creative directors, all of that. And that lends to a more like, this is not just my studio where I get paint all over the walls, but this is my studio where I also have to have my computer and you know,

00:10:33 all my equipment comes in and all of that. So we, we, we wrestled a bit with it and I probably wrestled longer with Justin to not use that word. But in the end, that is what we are. We're a coworking space that just happens to be for creative people. Doesn't just happen to be, we worked really hard to, and we've had to tell people,

00:10:53 they can't be a part, which is also very hard, especially in industries that might ride the line. And some people are going to have different opinions as to whether or not they're going to call that creative. So we actually have kind of brought it down to interviewing people and whether or not they're a good fit for our community. And that kind of does a way with the we're not,

00:11:14 we're not having, we're not, I'm not bringing you in based on we don't think your industry is creative. It's really, is it creative? And are you a good fit for our group? I love that you shared that. I do think that's a challenge that a niche space will we'll face that instead of, you know, sort of come one,

00:11:32 come all space. And I think once they come in, Jamie, it's like, it's, it's like glue. I mean, when you're around creatives and everyone's talking about the same thing and you can just walk, you know, three feet and say, Hey, come check out this photo. What do you think once you get here, it's super sticky.

00:11:52 Like have people from four years ago that are still members. And so it is more difficult. The, our nets, you know, like are a lot smaller than just saying anyone come in, but once we get them in, they tend to stay for a really long time, which is awesome. And you speak so clearly I suspect from a marketing perspective,

00:12:14 the it's interesting, right? Cause you're attracting creatives, which is so niche, but would people find you if you just called it right. Like an artist studio or that's an interesting struggle. I don't know if there's a right answer there, you know how people identify, but when they go to your website, like your member's page, it's fantastic. And it's so clear to me.

00:12:40 I could see that you might attract people who sort of are on the edge, like maybe fancy themselves to be creative. Like someone like me, who's totally not creative was like, yeah, I am not cool enough to be in that space. You are cool enough. No, I appreciate that. Or member page it's so like right. Photographer, artist,

00:13:02 like, and the beautiful Justin, did you, do you take the member photos? I do. Yeah. It's kind of a fun thing for me to do. And I think our members like that, you know, that, you know, I'm, I'm shot editorially and stuff. And so yeah, I'll shoot their photo and hopefully do a good job at it.

00:13:22 And then they're kind of proud to be on there, you know, and have their photo up there and share it and stuff. And I usually give them the photo you so they can put it on their social media, use it however they want. So it's kind of a nice little fun park And it's beautiful. The photos are beautiful. Although I did laugh that you must have the same struggle that other operators struggle with,

00:13:41 which is you had a bunch of like names with, with no people in them. Like some people won't sign up for the photo shoot. Totally. I know we are a little photographer. We are a little bit behind because you know, you get new members in. And so it's like every month, every like two weeks, you need to be shooting more photos.

00:14:02 And I just, it's hard to find the time to do that. Totally. Yes. I think the member walls, any of those things are hard to, hard to keep up with. So were you anxious about casting, a smaller net from a business perspective? Like as you started to think through the numbers and you were like, okay, we need a certain number of people to,

00:14:22 to make this work. Like it sounds like Kelly, you were more on the side of like, yeah, we're, it's, it's more exclusive than, than not. I don't think for me, at least it was never because of the way we started. It was really never a question that we wouldn't do it that way. We just knew so many creative people in Oak cliff is just filled with it with them that we never really struggled.

00:14:48 I mean, to be honest, we were right off the bat before we were finished building, I would say we had it half full people who had pretty much were committed to come in and we're waiting for us to be finished because the clip doesn't have a ton of spaces for, for welfare creatives, specifically makers or painters, or, you know, there's not a lot of studio space here in that neighborhood.

00:15:14 And so I feel like we had a really good start with people who were already committed and just waiting to get in. And we have a production studio in our space. So it's a thousand square foot space that mostly gets used as a production studio. And that's a rare bird as well. And so we do, we are a little bit photographer, videographer heavy because of that,

00:15:38 but, and Justin had the community of photographers. And so we had the connections ready to go. So I don't think it was ever anything that made me nervous. And as we've been going, I don't think we've ever even questioned changing that. Even if things got really, you know, like slow or studios, just not being filled. I don't think that that would be something we'd really want to cross over to not being a place for creatives.

00:16:03 I think we were probably at the beginning, a little overly optimistic, you know, it's all entrepreneurs must be, you know, we thought we put word out and we'd be full. And that wasn't the case. And we did have to work pretty hard for the first few months to start filling it. You know, not everyone came month. Number one.

00:16:26 So there was a little bit of a stressor at the beginning, but then, you know, six months, eight months, 12 months down the road, it, it just kinda kept growing and growing. And so then it got to a good place. And like I said, because it's a specifically artists, I feel like not a whole lot of people leave unless I have to.

00:16:44 So it's nice. We don't have a ton of turnover to be honest, which is great. And it's, it is great. I think that's gotta be a tremendous benefit I ask because I am sure we have folks listening. We're thinking about like, they have a niche in mind and not all niches are, you know, the right business model for coworking.

00:17:03 But I think when people go down the middle, like they're kind of Nish, but really anybody can join. That's challenging because you're not really speaking to anyone. And that's why I keep saying your, your site is so clear, like who it's for and your member profiles. It's like, look, this is a, you know, sort of a tribe of,

00:17:23 of people and you know, you, you fit or not, and it's not wishy washy. And it sounds like Kelly, you know, you're, you curate pretty strongly, you know, who becomes a part of the community. And I love, you know, how committed to that you are. I think that probably has led to some of your success.

00:17:40 So for people thinking about it, I think you have to go hard at it. And in those first few months, when you're like, is this going to work? Are we going to pay our, you know, pay the rent? Are we going to there not to waffle into like, nevermind anybody, anybody who wants to come in and come in,

00:17:54 you have to stay strong. Yeah. And I think it's, it's not a snotty mentality. It's we do have so much a workshare at our space a lot more than we ever, I think really thought would happen. Dallas can be a very competitive town city. And especially in the photography world, it's, it's pretty saturated. We have a lot of photographers and,

00:18:16 and we're not competitive there. And there is a lot of, I can't take this job. Do you want it? And we also wanted a lot of like round table discussion so that we're not just heavy in one area of creativity, but you know that, you know, a designer or a, like a brander could sit down with someone and say,

00:18:35 Hey, you really got to work on this. And then a photographer kids over the top, over someone's shoulder, you know, to the brand or say, you really need some better photography. So it's not just about sharing jobs, but also like, how can I help you further what you're doing with the skills that I have? And so if we were just,

00:18:52 you know, very heavy in one, we could totally feel that place with just targeters and videographers because of several parts of us. But Justin was really integral in the beginning and being like, no guys, we're getting too many photographers. And so we, we did like, you know, kind of stop taking some of that for a little bit so that we can more round ourselves out,

00:19:13 but it's, it's not like a, you're not creative and you don't belong. It's really like, this is we're pretty small. I mean, we, we designed that place us in our old business partner, not to just pack as many people as we can in, it was to give people a pretty decent studio size sized studio and to have a more intimate kind of family field than a just ton of people.

00:19:39 And so we are careful and we do curate, but we also it's like, how, how does your personality fit well here or not fit well here just as much as it is about creativity. Yeah. I love that. And you can see I'll link to your website in the show notes. You can see the lack of density and, and yet the field,

00:20:00 and you definitely have to check out the, the member page. So I'm curious, you both have, you know, careers as an artist and a photographer. You own the coworking space. Justin, you're working on that photo school, you have a daughter, you have a dog. How can you manage, you know, how do you manage it?

00:20:24 Not very well. I mean, you know, to be honest, it's difficult. I think for me in, in doing the coworking space, a huge part of it and still is today was in photography. I kind of chased the money. I tried to go make money. That was kind of the focus. And I was thankful that I enjoyed it and was creative.

00:20:52 The coworking space was definitely more like life. Isn't all about making a bunch of money. Mike, what else will fill us up? You know? And that was like creating community, helping people like getting people from one place to another and helping progression. So flock is like, we are POS you know, making money where we're cashflow positive, but the biggest thing we get out of it is like helping other people.

00:21:21 And so that I think kind of like gives you ton of like energy. It makes you want to go to work. We actually really liked the people here. So it's fun, you know, to like come to flock and work. So that helps a ton. Logistically for me, I'm a morning person. I like to wake up early and get things done in the first two or three hours that no one else's up or getting emails or anything.

00:21:49 That's how I help kind of like get my, to do list done and process. I don't know. What about you, Kelly? Well, one of the things that has helped us to survive is hiring a community manager, which we did at the beginning of this year. And it, it was going, it was a make or break situation because we lost our business partners who were helping us.

00:22:17 It was like, well, we either let go of our jobs more, which didn't really make financial sense, or we would bring someone in and Kelly she's also, Kelly has been integral for us to, for me, I'm a bit of, a lot more than Justin. I think I, I struggle with control and handing off things that I was already doing.

00:22:41 And so I've slowly, I slowly offloaded most of the things that I I'm handling. We do a little bit of events at block and I'm still kind of handling that. But for the most part, it's the only way that we've been able to go forward. I mean, COVID made, it was a special beast amongst that. So when everybody would got to kind of slow down and we did not,

00:23:06 it was full throttle, not panic, but like we got shut down for two months, which is better than a lot of people I think. But during that two months, we completely revamped our main area to make it more communal, communal seating people could spread out. We kinda just had to rethink a lot of things. And I hate the word pivot.

00:23:29 I think it's been a highly diluted in these times, but we had to make a very hard, fast pivot. And so I think going back to your question, we, aren't doing great at managing our time. I'm sure you can ask 12 year old that, and she'll give you the down and dirty answer, but we are better. We are doing better having brought Kelly on and she takes your course and that's helped her so much to cause she's new to that as well.

00:23:59 And so we've been learning a lot and just evolving and she's evolving and we're handing more things off and it's okay. I have studio separately. So I have to, when I'm slammed, which right now I am, thankfully I kind of have to just not even be there much at block and just trust a lot. And Kelly is also a photographer and a member of your space,

00:24:25 right. And a member of the community. Yep, totally. Which is cool. She, she worked with me, assisting me for a while in the photography realm and then became community manager and then is renting a space from us. And on the day she's not working with us Monday and Friday, she's here doing her photography stuff, which is awesome.

00:24:48 And another big thing Jamie, which you might want to talk about is pretty early on. I would, I think Kelly correct me if I'm wrong, but we had the idea of bringing on interns and early on Kelly be on our community Manager calls. And somebody would be like, thinking about getting an intern and Kelly would say like we have 10 or however many,

00:25:12 and it probably lends itself to the type of community you have. But yeah, I would love to hear about that. Well, for your previous question, it was a huge help because to have a couple interns here, I didn't have to answer the door constantly. I didn't have to fill the coffee and do the water and do all that stuff constantly.

00:25:33 But the cool thing is we have a cool space, a studio. I have a ton of photo equipment that I let them use if it's not a paid gig. And so we have a lot of stuff to offer, which we were talking about it. And we're like, what if we did like a trade, they give us only five hours a week and then they basically have a free membership.

00:25:54 And then they get one free pay day in the studio. So if they have a paid client, they get one free studio day. And so, and it's just asking five hours of them. So it's pretty. So that is, has been extremely helpful cause they do so much around here. But then, you know, it's a little more work on Kelly's then our community manager,

00:26:17 cause she has to kind of manage them, but it's so worth it because it also brings like this young life energy to the space. And we have two a day, they overlap for two hours midday, but it's just bringing in new faces, new, friendly people in the space. Then they might have a friend in and then they might be shooting and that's like some liveliness in the space and then the studio.

00:26:43 And so it's been, I would recommend it to anyone that's like struggling to, to have enough time and effort energy for everything because there's so many young people in school or just outside of school that would love to be a part of something. And you can give them, you have a lot to offer and then they can just give a little bit of their time and effort has been,

00:27:07 is There access to your community? I'm sure is really meaningful, right? So are they students or early in their career or a combination of both Combination commitment. So they commit to six months of, you know, once a week. And most of all, most of them stay longer at the end of their six months, which speaks a lot. I think about what they're getting out of the space as a community,

00:27:34 they're asked to kind of choose a creative arena or a project that they want to work on that would help, that would benefit us throughout their time. And that's part of the management that Kelly's doing is, you know, having a Dropbox for them to put their work in so that we can either use it for a post on Instagram or, you know,

00:27:55 we have a sketch artist and he's always there sketching scenes from flock and we post them all the time for him. So they have things that on top of just like making coffee and cleaning that usually their duties usually take them 30 to 45 minutes of their time. And so th the rest of the time, we're asking them to kind of work on the project that they've said that they want to be a part of.

00:28:21 We just had one of our artists go back to full-time school. So she just left us, but she did a textile piece of the front of our building. And that was so she worked on that, you know, in her time there. So it kind of fits there whatever. And a lot of our students are, I mean, a lot of our interns are either in school or just finished school and they're just trying to figure out what they're going to do next.

00:28:47 And the cool thing is we've so we have two other spaces we're filling right now. And we had 12 people apply for it. So we could look at 12 people that are wanting to intern and handpick people that we, that are perfect for this space. Like we just got a, a graphic designer and she's like working on like amazing stuff for us,

00:29:07 newsletters, all this stuff. We've got photographers shooting for Instagram and stuff like that, you know, you know, all sorts of things, but you can kind of hand pick what you need in the space and have it for free, but you're giving them a lot. Yeah. Two of our interns became members. One of them has one of the largest spaces in our place.

00:29:28 So it was a big leap for her to go from being an intern. I think she interned for two years with us and then the space became available and she really wrestled with it. But she's been there for like over a year, Justin, and then another one of our members did the same. So we it's it's it's it says a lot that you can go from interning to taking a pretty big leap kind of rent space with us.

00:29:59 So, Hey, I just wanted To jump in really quickly before we continue with our discussion. If you're working on opening a co-working space, I want to invite you to join me for my free masterclass three behind the scenes secrets to opening a coworking space. If you're working on opening a coworking space, I want to share the three decisions that I've seen successful operators make when they're creating their coworking business.

00:30:25 The masterclass is totally free. It's about an hour and includes some Q and a. If you'd like to join me, you can register at everything co-working dot com forward slash masterclass. If you already have a coworking space, I want to make sure you know, about community manager, university, community manager, university is a training and development platform for community managers.

00:30:48 And it can be for owner operators. It has content training resources, templates from day one to general manager. The platform includes many courses that cover the major buckets of the community manager role from community management, operations, sales, and marketing, finance, and leadership. The content is laid out in a graduated learning path. So the community manager can identify what content is most relevant to them,

00:31:15 depending on their experience and kind of jump in from there. We provide a live brand new training every single month for the community manager group. We also host a live Q and a call every single month so that the community managers can work through any challenges that they're having or opportunities get ideas from other community managers build their own peer network. We also have a private slack group for the group.

00:31:42 So if you're interested in learning more, you can go to everything, coworking.com forward slash community manager. So I'm curious, do you, do you give tours or is your membership intake all like sort of managed and interviews? Like, do your interns walk people through the space and sort of do a sales piece or is that handled separately? That's pretty much Kelly.

00:32:07 Mag-Net the community manager and myself do tours, then don't ask them to do that. Yeah. And then if like Kelly McNutt community manager does it and she likes them, then we interview them, Kelly, my wife and I interview them to make sure they're a good fit. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So the interns are kind of taking care of the other things.

00:32:33 Yeah, totally. Yeah. So Justin, let's, let's flip for a minute and talk about that photo school. Yeah. So that's how I met you. You decided to start the membership, I mean, talk a little bit more about your professional background and what you do and, and you know, the Genesis of that photo school. Yeah. So I'm an editorial photographer also shoot commercial and advertising,

00:32:59 but my focus is portrait work for magazines. So I've been doing that for nearly 20 years and actually started that program to think through, of doing an online, it was a stomach Laurence deal, unlike online memberships. So I initially thought I was going to do a co-working space online, you know, taking flock online through COVID initially. And then once I got into it and started kind of going through the stuff,

00:33:31 it just made much more sense that I start out at least doing photography, doing an online course with photography, just because my background and where I've been and the knowledge I have for it and the resume and stuff like that. And so that started me down that path. I taught a college course photography college course, like three years ago and just realized I love teaching and helping others and seeing them progress.

00:33:58 And so it, it was just one of those eye-opening things that you're like, this might be like my next career path. Like, I feel really good about this. So I, I took the leap and, and it's been awesome. I mean, we've, we just started our third class we have, and then they go through a certain amount of four month time period,

00:34:21 and then they can continue on into the next course, which just continues forever, however long you want. And I have 60 students about 60 students and monthly, and it's been, it's been a really cool thing. It's been a ton of work for sure, but it's been awesome and extremely rewarding. So what, What do they learn? What's the goal of the class?

00:34:45 So I'm teaching photographers, lighting that's I wanted to kind of just pinpoint exactly what I love and what I feel like I'm good at kinda my skills. So I'm teaching photographers lighting, and it could be like beginning photographers, even photographers that have been shooting for years and years, but using mostly natural light, I'm teaching them how to use strobes and how to just think through lighting basically.

00:35:09 And I'll give them one to two pieces of content a week and then I'll do Facebook lives with them. We do critiques, I give them assignments. So since I've talked to you, Jamie it's even progressed and like kind of the intensity of it and like how it's just getting so much better, every single class and the things I'm doing with them and seeing their progression has just been ridiculous.

00:35:34 So it's been so cool. And are any of your members local or are they kind of all over it? It's Been interesting. The first one, because that's kind of my, of course my main stretch is like Dallas people. So it was probably 90% Dallas people, actually, a handful of people from flog are in my class. I was curious about the overlap,

00:35:58 I assume. So they're a little bit, So that's been awesome and you know, not that this is the way I do it, but it, it works out to where I'm teaching these photographers lighting, and then they're going to use those skills, get more clients and rent the studio from flock. And so it's a circle that works out really well,

00:36:19 that I didn't think through that till like later on, you know, it, wasn't why I wanted to do it, but it works out really well. So it started out initially Dallas people and then the next school, it was like maybe 70% Dallas people, 30% like New York and LA and a guy from Thailand and all these other places. And then this last class is probably 30% Dallas people in 70% people outside of the city.

00:36:45 So, which I think is a good sign that it's spreading like that. How do you seek you're attracting the new folks? So you are, I remember when we were doing the cohort, I think Jess and I looked at your Instagram and we were like, wait, Justin's famous relative to coworking space. Usually aren't so famous because they're so local. Right.

00:37:09 So I think at the time you had like 20,000 Instagram followers because of your photography work and yeah. What are you doing to grow your audience? I definitely social media is a big thing. That's been tough. That's the toughest part is to, to build trust with people that, that don't know me to trust that I'm actually gonna like be involved in helping you grow.

00:37:36 You're not just watching a bunch of videos. And so just getting that message out has been the toughest part and growing it it's a slow growth. I was hoping to just like blasted and have a hundred members and then 150 members. I don't want to get too big where I can't like interact with them, but it's been a slower process, which has actually been really good.

00:38:00 But the struggle yeah. Is like just getting word out really because the members that go through it, I think it's like 80% of them continue on after the course, they keep staying with me and then we keep growing and doing other stuff, but that's always been, even if photography I've been doing it for almost 20 years. And that's my struggle as marketing,

00:38:23 I hate talking about myself, putting my work out there. It's, I'm really not good at it. And there's some people that are awesome at it, but in my opinion, aren't maybe the best photographers and isn't that so Interesting. I love that. I think I wrote sort of a note to myself recently that I get really frustrated because my bar is so high around quality and,

00:38:50 and write the content. And there are people who are simply like braver, right. And they aren't as good as good at what they're doing, but it doesn't matter. It's like, I feel like that's such an important lesson to try to learn is it's, it's just, yeah. It's about being brave and putting yourself out there. And I remember Jess and I laughing because you were anxious about doing video and we're like,

00:39:16 you're overqualified. You have a great space and you're great at it, but it was not in your comfort zone. Just sort of front of the camera, right? Yes, Definitely. For sure. And the quality is very important to me as well. Perfectionism could get your craft, right. It's yeah, exactly. Yeah. Whereas I'll pull my iPhone out and,

00:39:40 you know, just get it done and it takes you, so you use flock to produce your videos. That's an advantage of having That's very true. That's huge because I'm not renting a studio or an office space. I'm not renting a studio space. You know, I'm able to use flock for all of that, which, you know, that's probably 1500 bucks a month.

00:40:01 You know that me as a photographer, I'm saving by having this space. Yeah. Kelly, you Should start sending him a bill for, for use of the space. Yeah. That's already nice. Do we, do you think you'll do anything in person like for treat or yeah. Yeah. That's the plan and the future is like getting all the photographers together and maybe we go do a trip somewhere,

00:40:30 you know, this started in COVID, which is kind of why it started at initially. So once we get through it, you know, like having face-to-face meet ups and traveling and, you know, having a whole group, I mean, I've got pretty big plans and it keeps growing and growing and growing for it. But we just got to get through this dumb COVID so Justin,

00:40:54 I'm curious. So it's now been, wait, when did you start this like ramp like early summer? 2020? Yeah. So like A year and a half. Yeah. About a year and a half. What advice would you give to somebody thinking about doing something like that? Cause I think the thing I admire about you is You did it, Like you just kept going.

00:41:20 I, you know, I remember kind of, you just were like so determined and persistent and you'd just kind of kept taking the steps and, and here you are. Yeah. What would you say to somebody thinking about something like that, kind of into the mix? Yeah. Any sort of like online membership thing? I think for me, I don't know if it's just my personality or something,

00:41:44 but if I start something or say, I'm going to do it, I mean, come hell or high water. I'm going to do it. Even, probably not in a good way to the detriment of my family life, you know, like I'm just going to do it. I'm not going to fail. And so I think you kind of have to have that mentality of this is gonna be tough.

00:42:06 It's gonna suck. It's going to be frustrating. You have such bad days, but you just have to keep pushing and pushing and pushing. Even now I just did a launch. It wasn't, I didn't get the, the large numbers I want to do, but after just take a deep breath and just realize it's going to be a slower process and that's okay,

00:42:23 all this work is going to be worth it, but you just got to keep going. You just gotta keep pushing and just know that in the future, it's going to be worth it. And that's the way it was with my career, my photography career, you know, always, I think that's basically life. You just got to keep pushing and going and knowing that it's going to be worth the work in the end And trying to enjoy the journey.

00:42:47 Yes, yes. That's for sure. I think the part of the enjoying the journey is, is in that hard work, I'm seeing people progress and seeing the fruits of it, even though it's might not be financial at first, but you're seeing growth and people like taking jobs, they never would have taken because they were nervous and scared or even here at flock in the coworking space,

00:43:15 helping people in their career, you know, succeed is like so much better than financial success. So even in those struggles, even while we're struggling, you can look around and see like the cool, amazing things that are happening around you. It doesn't mean it's easier. It doesn't mean you're not stressing or whatever, but you can appreciate those times. My,

00:43:39 I have a mentor that sometimes speaks with both Justin and I, I would say she's late sixties, early seventies. And she was just telling him she likes to use the metaphor of, of nature a lot. And she was telling him, you know, things that explode quickly in nature don't last long. They might be like, look really beautiful and look like their growth is,

00:44:04 you know, gonna always be that way. But typically things that just blow up really quickly or not last long lasting and the things in nature that are slow to take off and slow to progress are the ones that have the longest beauty and the longest know fruit, even when you're talking about things like that. And so I thought that was good for him to just,

00:44:28 you know, and like the individual lives that it's changing and how much courage and bravery they're getting just with, not just not, because it's not like what he's giving them as a small thing, but because someone stripped away the fear of a piece of equipment, that seems like a just thing. But it is so like Justin got an entire degree in photography and had one lighting class.

00:44:56 I was always right. You know, you can, I'm not downplaying a college degree. I'm just saying he had to teach himself and be on sets and be assisting for years to learn all of that. And it took him a very long time. He really is condensing it so amazingly, but really so much of it is just like, no, this is,

00:45:20 this is how you get this kind of laying it on a platter, but also just giving people so much bravery where they just had fear of an inanimate object. You just say throbs and people would be like, man, I don't know anything. You know, so it's a simple thing, but it's not simple at all. It's really huge for them.

00:45:44 So I'm curious, you mentioned a mentor. How do you guys manage sort of working on a business together? So oftentimes, you know, people tell me they want a partner and I'm always like, you know, you have to be really careful about partnerships. Sometimes they go, well, most of the times they don't and then to have a partner who's a spouse,

00:46:04 you know, is a totally different dynamic. How do you kind of manage that piece of working together, owning a business together, going home to the same house at night? What advice would you give to, to a couple thinking about maybe starting a business or starting a coworking space together? What, what can help make it work? Well, I mean,

00:46:30 you know, to be honest, it is difficult and amazing. Like I actually liked being around Kelly. I think she's fun and cool, but there's times that, of course we're going to get on each other's nerves. I think good communication is huge. I think, and this is what our mentor said to us recently because we were just kind of,

00:46:54 you know, having some struggles with it and, and she was like, just saying kind of find what you're good at or your skills or your specialties. And then like, Justin, you kind of get, you get the Trump card in this area. Kelly, you get kind of get the Trump card in this area because we don't want to step on each other's toes.

00:47:14 We don't want to, you know, overrule someone, but good communication, weekly meetings, you know, with our community manager, just talking about stuff, you know, going on a walk with Kelly and just kind of walking through, talking through stuff is huge. So good communication and kind of knowing where your boundaries are, where, you know, your skills are,

00:47:40 I guess, I don't know. What would you say going, Yeah, there's a neighborhood, our, our space, it's literally in a neighborhood just right on the edge of a commercial district in Everett. And so I'm sure those neighbors around they're like, well, there's that couple again, walking around and Talking Either throwing her hands or crying. I definitely have a strong,

00:48:06 strong personality. So I think, you know, like Justin said, let's be honest. We have lots of neighborhood talks where it's like, people can hear us right now. So we probably should walk the neighborhood, talk this out. And it's usually a good thing. And it usually ends in us listening to each other saying, Hey, that's not how I intended that to be.

00:48:30 Or I know this is important too, but yeah, it's not easy. I wouldn't say it's for everyone. Justin and I are complete opposites, which I think is very common in married couples to give an example for people who are into the Enneagram, I'm an eight, which is called the challenger and Justin's a nine, which is called the peacemaker, but we've been married 17 years and we know each other pretty well at this point.

00:49:02 And it really comes down to just kindness. Like, you know, if you, sometimes I'm just not going to get what I want and I'm definitely more one to push that. And that's just okay, because I have to just think that the business has to come behind my marriage and the way that I choose to treat my husband and how my house runs with my child.

00:49:29 And if I can't leave the stress of things where it needs to be left, which I'm totally still learning to do, then this isn't going to work out long-term. So we we're actually hopefully cross our fingers about to start building a house, which I have seven years. You're like, oh, like this is taking forever. We're finally there. But I'm also like,

00:49:55 man, I've kind of dreading this because it's just adding another layer to the cake. So we'll get a real practice in what we're preaching right now, here in the next year. But, but I think in general we do better when we have a lot, you know, people all the time are like, you guys are just so busy and you're,

00:50:12 I don't even understand. And I think for us, and just specifically the way I was raised, which is a very like, go, go, go mentality. It's just not, it's just second nature. What, like, what other life is there? I mean, coming home every night and just being done at five has never been in our repertoire.

00:50:29 Why would we start now? But I would warn people if that really isn't your jam and that maybe you think twice about a ever opening a coworking space and be definitely doing that with your spouse or significant other partner or whatever, because it's hard. It would be so much easier if she was like the accountant, you know, the numbers person. But since we're both creatives,

00:50:58 it's like, we both have opinions on everything. Right. And this may be the same thing. Yeah, Totally. So I'm curious since you have an only child, I'm an only child, does she get involved in all the conversations? Is that one of the reasons you have to walk the neighborhood More so to protect our members from got it. Yeah.

00:51:24 She loves flock and the people here and she's just like a superstar here, you know, she walks in and everyone loves her and talks with her and we try and kind of involve her and let her be a part and stuff like that. And she's our, she's already told us when we either retire or die, she's gonna, she's gonna run flock.

00:51:45 Yeah. So that, that's a good sign, I guess. Will she be an artist or, Yeah, I totally think so. She's running the theater yeah. In dance. So I think we got three artists in our family, which is pretty rare. Good and bad. I think I also Love though, you know, you guys have this sort of unique balance of being artists and monetizing that.

00:52:16 Right. I listened to a lot of like podcasts and things for creatives, you know, trying to figure out, well, how do you make a living doing that and surrounding yourself with other creative people and you guys have had the fortune to make that work, which is amazing in great modeling for your daughter. Yeah. Thanks. It's, it's tough.

00:52:37 Definitely getting started I think. And that comes, you know, that's where that drive comes in. But once you kind of get it going and build up your, your audience or whatever, you know, you're, it's like a spider web, you know, like word about you or about your coworking space or whatever it gets out there becomes a lot easier,

00:52:55 but it's a whole lot of work at the beginning. That's for sure. Justin, We have to drop a couple of names of people you've you photographed? So I I've shopped for like time magazine and wall street journal, Nike, some fashion agencies, but people-wise like the Gaines Joanna Gaines, mark Cuban. I don't know some politicians, Tim McGraw. I don't know.

00:53:31 I see them pop up on your Instagram once in a while. And I have every, all of your links, Kelly and Justin. Cool. Yeah. So we'll put those in the show notes and Kelly, tell me a little bit about your sculpting work. I referred to myself as an installation artist, which a lot of time gets to like head turn or an eyebrow raise.

00:53:51 They just don't necessarily know that term terminology, but I predominantly work in porcelain slip, which is liquid porcelain. My pieces are mostly installed into the wall, but I'm drawn to the installation method of art. Whereas we were just talking about this this morning with an intern that was interviewing a lot of artists, want nothing to do with whatever happens to that piece in the end,

00:54:18 they don't care. It's just as important to me how it ends up and how it's installed as it is when I'm making it. I have just as much passionate about the install as I do the making of it. And that's really, I think what sets apart installation artists from someone who would not call themselves that because not everything in installation artists makes is necessary necessarily installed,

00:54:40 but to them, the end product is a big deal. And you have to think before you even start how it will be presented in the end, as opposed to a painter can just take off and paint and let it flow. I have to make sure that whatever I get finished with is going to look how I want it to look and hardware has to be involved in all that.

00:54:59 So I w I love to do all kinds of installation art, but predominantly what pays my bills as my porcelain work. Interesting. It's beautiful stuff too. So I looked a little bit at your gallery on your site, but so what does the next year look like for the two of you and the businesses? For me personally, I'm hoping photo school becomes bigger and my actual shooting becomes smaller to where it's kind of the main source of income is photo school.

00:55:34 And just, I just love it. I love teaching and seeing progression of the students, but then also the cool thing is when that is happening, it also frees me up to be in and a part of flock even more cause flock is like rejuvenating and just being around creatives and the lives here is awesome. So there's times when I'm shooting, I'm out on location shooting.

00:55:59 And so I'm not in influx. So I love being in flock and doing photo school would allow me to do, to be a part here, like even more so. Yeah, I think that's kind of a big thing. And then just being, you know, even more financially free to enjoy life, to, to help people more, to sit with our members and hang out because we're not rushed doing other things.

00:56:24 So, yeah. Thanks upward and onward. What about for you, Kelly? Yeah, I mean, I think we've been asked before, like, oh, y'all going to have different locations and I'm immediately like, no, no for me, but, but I think getting to a place where, which I think we're very close to, like Justin said,

00:56:49 we have people who have been with us to the entire time, a good amount of those people, but just getting that for like 80% of our studios. So that, so that we so like going forward, it's just a smooth sale of like family mentality, which is really kind of how flock is. I mean, for me personally in my studio work,

00:57:13 you know, I like to be busy. Cause 2020 was like, the faucet got turned off and then somebody turned on both of them full blast and I'd like to have evening out of that. So I have more time to be at block and not just feel like I'm missing out on so much there. So yeah, more balanced I think would be for me the next year.

00:57:34 I think everybody's going to say that after COVID just like, can we get some, some balance back here and if not even financial, but just like expectation wise, what we can expect. I would love to still have big Christmas parties like we had and get together and have our big potlucks. And I just miss the community, the in-house community, things that we were able to do.

00:57:56 We do a big art show every year where all of our artists show, we haven't been able to do that. Literally it was in may. So we had to shut it down at the beginning of 2020. So we haven't had a show in a couple of years. So just getting those things back for our community would be a hope for me. I love it.

00:58:17 Thank you guys for sharing your story. I love it. And I know that there are people in the audience who can relate to the things that you've shared or thinking about doing. So the things that you've undertaken. So I love following your story. And Justin, I look forward to hearing more about that photo school and yeah. So thank you for joining us.

00:58:39 I'm A full on floated now to the antler. It just looks, we were trying to not look like pretty much just have the strange headpiece In your head. No, that's okay. We'll roll with it. It's yeah. Like an installation for video shoots.

For the full show notes of this episode, click here.

Want to join our coworking conversation in the Everything Coworking Facebook Group? Find us here!

Looking for a specific episode? Go to the episode index here.